Special required valves - are they really needed?

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homehelp

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The following shower handle and bathtub faucet both require special valves according to Lowes. I have spoken to a few people and contractors who say that they are not needed because of "sharkbites". Do most plumbers circumvent these "Required" valves with sharkbites. I dont really know what sharkbites are (or understand how they work). The valves seem to address pressure balancing?

Would skipping the required valve affect product warranties?

These valves are very expensive. If I can avoid using them, I am happy to do so. I just want to make sure that I am not missing something important.

Edit:
Its interesting that one review says that these valves are for shutting off the water at the fixture instead of further downstream. I already have a water-shut-off at the shower. I thought it had something to do with the water pressure because they call it a "PosiTemp® pressure–balancing control valve"
"The separately purchased rough-in valve is used in combination with this valve trim kit and the rough-in valve includes the cartridge and, if you want, stops. Stops allow the hot and/or cold water feeds to be turned off so that the cartridge can be replaced without shutting off the water further upstream or to the entire house."


Items:

Item # 885869 Model # T2151BN

Moen Brushed nickel Lever Shower Handle
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Moen-Brushed-Nickel-Lever-Shower-Handle/1000243855


Item # 962183 Model # RT6-5WRK

Pfister Weller Brushed Nickel 2-Handle Deck Mount Roman Bathtub Faucet
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Pfister-We...le-Deck-Mount-Roman-Bathtub-Faucet/1000344387




Valves:

Item # 884969 Model # 2510

Moen M-Pact 1/2-in ID Copper Sweat x 1/2-in OD Copper Sweat Brass Pressure Balancing Valve

Item # 89238 Model # 0X6-150R

Pfister Pfirst 1/2-in ID Copper Sweat x 1/2-in OD Copper Sweat Brass Tub Filler Valve
 
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I am not sure I understand your question, and I am also not sure you are understanding the people you spoke with.

I will only talk about Moen, since those are the only ones I use in my home and in my rentals. For a "rough-in" valve, Moen makes two types that I am aware of. One is a Posi-Temp ( which is the one in your link), which is both pressure balancing and temperature regulating. That means that, if someone is in the shower, and someone flushes the toilet, the temperature should not change. The flow of cold water will reduce due to the flush, and the valve compensates by reducing the flow of the hot so the temperature stays relatively constant while the toilet refills. The handle of a Posi-Temp valve will be turned on by spinning it to the desired setting.

The other type of Mown rough in valve is a Moentrol. Those typically have internal stops (meaning you don't need shutoff valves behind the wall) since the water can be shutoff from the tub side by removing the round coverplate, and turning the brass stop with a screwdriver. They are also pressure and temperature balancing as far as I know. To turn the water on with a Moentrol valve, you pull the handle out, rather than spinning it. Spinning it will adjust the temperature of the water, but will not turn it off and on.

As a result, if you are set on a specific handle, you will have to choose the corresponding valve. A position temp handle will not fit a Moentrol valve and vice versa.

Hopeven that helps.
 
You cannot put a Moen Positemp trim on a Moen moentrol (push pull) valve and vise versa.
 
I am not sure I understand your question, and I am also not sure you are understanding the people you spoke with.

I will only talk about Moen, since those are the only ones I use in my home and in my rentals. For a "rough-in" valve, Moen makes two types that I am aware of. One is a Posi-Temp ( which is the one in your link), which is both pressure balancing and temperature regulating. That means that, if someone is in the shower, and someone flushes the toilet, the temperature should not change. The flow of cold water will reduce due to the flush, and the valve compensates by reducing the flow of the hot so the temperature stays relatively constant while the toilet refills. The handle of a Posi-Temp valve will be turned on by spinning it to the desired setting.

The other type of Mown rough in valve is a Moentrol. Those typically have internal stops (meaning you don't need shutoff valves behind the wall) since the water can be shutoff from the tub side by removing the round coverplate, and turning the brass stop with a screwdriver. They are also pressure and temperature balancing as far as I know. To turn the water on with a Moentrol valve, you pull the handle out, rather than spinning it. Spinning it will adjust the temperature of the water, but will not turn it off and on.

As a result, if you are set on a specific handle, you will have to choose the corresponding valve. A position temp handle will not fit a Moentrol valve and vice versa.

Hopeven that helps.
I agree that something was lost in translation. The fact that 2 contractors said the same thing made no sense to me. They both basically said I could save money by not buying the required valve.

Your explanation is helpful. However, you are only describing the features of 2 different types of valves. My title and my post are asking a different question. Are these valves actually REQUIRED or not?

Is Moen requiring the valve for only those customers that want the anti-scald and pressure balancing features? What if you dont care? Can you just use some other standard plumbing valve?

Home Depot does a better job of listing suitable valves for the shower handle:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/MOEN-Br...d-Nickel-Valve-Not-Included-T2151BN/100672493

Are these all posi-temp?

If a special valve is REQUIRED, I just need to know what to buy. Can I just buy the 2510 and call it a day?
 
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The moen diverter is complete with the trim and the rough in valve. It is probably the same thing you have on the shower wall. The tub filler requires both the valves and the trim set and you need tempered water to it. A sharkbite is just a push on connector.
 
The moen diverter is complete with the trim and the rough in valve. It is probably the same thing you have on the shower wall. The tub filler requires both the valves and the trim set and you need tempered water to it. A sharkbite is just a push on connector.
I am not really sure I understand. To simplify, here is the product:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/MOEN-Br...d-Nickel-Valve-Not-Included-T2151BN/100672493


Here is what the product description says:

So the question I am asking is: Do I have to buy one of these "required valves" and if so, is the 2510 fine? My house is 25 years old. I have doubts that I have one of these valves already.


What does "required" mean?

Is Moen requiring the valve for only those customers that want the anti-scald and pressure balancing features? What if you dont care? Can you just use some other standard plumbing valve?
 
If you want to use the Moen trim (handle and round plate you chose), then yes, you have to use a Moen valve.

As far as the valves you listed, click 9n the SPECIFICATIONS for each of them. That is where you will see if the valve is a posi-temp or a moentrol valve. The specifications for each trim will also list whether each specific trim you choose will fit a positemp or moentrol valve. Since the valves operate differently, you cannot mix and match.
 
If you want to use the Moen trim (handle and round plate you chose), then yes, you have to use a Moen valve.

As far as the valves you listed, click 9n the SPECIFICATIONS for each of them. That is where you will see if the valve is a posi-temp or a moentrol valve. The specifications for each trim will also list whether each specific trim you choose will fit a positemp or moentrol valve. Since the valves operate differently, you cannot mix and match.
Thank you. That answers my question
 
It might help if you explained what your original plan is. Are you changing the trim in your shower or are you putting in a new shower divert er/valve. If your just changing the trim then no you dont need a new divert er/valve.
 
It might help if you explained what your original plan is. Are you changing the trim in your shower or are you putting in a new shower divert er/valve. If your just changing the trim then no you dont need a new divert er/valve.
Changing the trim. But I can't get the old cartridge out. Its jammed and not coming out. Regardless, if I am getting the Moen 2151 shower handle, don't I need the valve? It says it requires the valve. Jeff Materro said it was required if you are putting in the Moen 2151 handle.
 
Changing the trim. But I can't get the old cartridge out. Its jammed and not coming out. Regardless, if I am getting the Moen 2151 shower handle, don't I need the valve? It says it requires the valve. Jeff Materro said it was required if you are putting in the Moen 2151 handle.
I did not go back and read all of the posts again, so forgive me if you already answered this.

If all you want to do is change the trim (what you call the handle), you need to tell us what make rough in valve you already have. If it is a Moen posi-temp, I believe the new trim will work. If it is something other than a Moen posi'temp, it will not work with that handle.

Post a picture of the rough in valve if you can
 
Does the handle on your shower valve just pull out to turn it on. If the house is 25 years old this is probably what you
have. First you need a cartridge puller to get the cartridge out and then you can buy new trim online. If you want to
replace the faucet you will need a new valve body and the trim kit to go with it.
 

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