Repeat broken pipe

[Perry_L]

Two winters ago, we had a pipe burst in the exterior wall of our finished basement. The pipe leads to the outdoor faucet, and we had not shut off the water to this line before a very cold week in March (in Connecticut). We hired a plumber from a company that we found with good reviews online. They found that there was a joint in the pipe (probably a repair from a previous freezing incident) that came apart . They replaced a plastic fitting with a copper one.
Since that winter, we have shut off the water to our outdoor faucets in the fall, and drained the lines by leaving the outdoor faucets open. This spring, when we turned the water back on to the basement faucet, we noticed that there was very little water pressure flowing out of the open faucet. Then, water started flowing through the light switch panel in the wall at the same location where we had the previous damage. We cut through the drywall to find that this copper repair had failed. When we contacted the plumber, he said that 'cold air' must have made the joint pull apart. Is this a reasonable explanation? How can we avoid this problem again?

 

[havasu]

I don't see how this could occur if the line was drained of any water.

 

[Perry_L]

I don't see how this could occur if the line was drained of any water.

That is what we are trying to understand. The valve was shut off way back in the ceiling of our laundry room and the outdoor faucet was left open. The water was indeed off because no flooding occurred until we turned the valve back on (warm day in May).

 

[havasu]

Did you drain down from top to bottom? Many people shut off a lower valve, but don't drain the water from above the shut off valve. Extreme cold can still pop the repair.

 

[voletl]

Most likely install error that looks like a ProPress fitting that they installed if done correctly should never come apart regardless if it came apart most likely user error besides they should warranty everything for at least one year after install they should be replacing that.

 

[Perry_L]

Did you drain down from top to bottom? Many people shut off a lower valve, but don't drain the water from above the shut off valve. Extreme cold can still pop the repair.

The shut off valve is up in the ceiling of warm laundry room. The repair is down on the inside of the wall that leads directly to the outdoor faucet. We shut off the valve back in the ceiling and then drained by opening the faucet outside, and leaving it open. I can’t see any way that water could back up to the repair site, unless there is something I don’t understand. Thanks for your comments! I just don’t want to close this wall up again without understanding the problem.

 

[Mr_David]

How do you turn your water on! If you have a ball valve you need to open valve slowly. when you hear the water start flowing.
STOP! let the system fill. then open it the rest of the way.
You would be surprised on how many people I've seen slam the valve open.
I tell people it's like pulling your car out of a parking space slow and easy until you get to the main road.
Nobody slams the gas pedal to floor when they back out of a parking space.

 

[Perry_L]

How do you turn your water on! If you have a ball valve you need to open valve slowly. when you hear the water start flowing.
STOP! let the system fill. then open it the rest of the way.
You would be surprised on how many people I've seen slam the valve open.
I tell people it's like pulling your car out of a parking space slow and easy until you get to the main road.
Nobody slams the gas pedal to floor when they back out of a parking space.

So you think the pressure of the water moving through the pipe when we first turned it back on this spring was enough to burst that seam? Its hard to turn the valve super fast, its up in the ceiling in our laundry room, but we certainly weren't aware of that risk.

 

[Perry_L]

Most likely install error that looks like a ProPress fitting that they installed if done correctly should never come apart regardless if it came apart most likely user error besides they should warranty everything for at least one year after install they should be replacing that.

It has been two years since the repair. This is inside drywall in our finished basement though, so we need this repair job to last way longer than that. I cant think of any other reason for the failure other than install error, but I want to make sure that was it before we go and do the same thing again.

 

[voletl]

Sorry didn't realize it's been 2 years best bet is to rip off that crap and solder the pipe together

 

[Perry_L]

That is what we are trying to understand. The valve was shut off way back in the ceiling of our laundry room and the outdoor faucet was left open. The water was indeed off because no flooding occurred until we turned the valve back on (warm day in May).

 

[havasu]

OK, experts, help me understand something. Air being pushed in a sealed off pipe will accumulate way more pressure than water, correct?

 

[CT18]

Most likely install error that looks like a ProPress fitting that they installed if done correctly should never come apart regardless if it came apart most likely user error besides they should warranty everything for at least one year after install they should be replacing that.

Not true on the pro press. We had an 1 1/2" 90° blow off at 100 psi. That we are now learning has been happening more elsewhere in the industry. I am not sure if QC at these fitting manufactures isnt up to snuff or it is something else. That line to the hose bib had to have water in it. It would not come apart unless it was under pressure from freezing.

 

[Geofd]

pro press is rated for 650 psi i believe.....we just had a demo on it yesterday.....i bet there was an air leak during the winter and the pipe may have been off but not drained all the way

 

[voletl]

Testing pressure of 650psi
Working pressure of 200psi

I dont use propress everything I do is with a torch... most errors I have found are user/ installer

 

[RenewDave]

If it was cold air that made the Propress fitting come apart, it would be happening all over. This was clearly installer error if everything you say is accurate. If water got in the pipe and partially froze at the fitting, then I guess potentially it could have expanded enough to cause that situation.(not likely). I worry with Propress that if the battery power is getting a little low will the joint compress fully and, if a guy is flying 100 mph to get to his next job, how easy is it to screw up a joint. Full disclosure, we do service and we see problems with Propress.

 

[pcride]

My guess is user error in installing the fitting. It’s also a good reason to use solder fittings. 2 fittings failed that were not solder.

Also I didn’t see a PRV (pressure reducing valve), assuming this line goes right into city water your probably having 200 psi !!

 

[pcride]

Also I was just thinking of water hammer or maybe even expansion and contraction of wood where the copper is mounted to could have pulled the fitting apart. Maybe not right at the fitting but down somewhere else

 

[edfiero]

Problem is with the repair connection.
As was mentioned above. Rip that thing out and SOLDER in a proper coupler, and you won't have the problem again, provided you shut off the water each winter.

 

[WyrTwister]

This is what I would do .

If PEX is legal where you live , I would use PEX , with the brass fittings & the copper crimp rings . Then I would insulate the PEX , kind of like in the photo .

In the ceiling , where the current shut off valve is , I might install a Tee , slightly down stream of the valve . Install a ball valve at the side outlet of the Tee . ( Solder all the copper fittings / connections . )

You could use this " side valve " to let it have air , when draining the line . You could also use output air from a shop vac to help blow any reaming water out of the line , when draining it .

If it is accessible , I might use PEX from the Tee , all the way to where the pipe exist the exterior wall .

Wyr
God bless