Need help replacing a sweat coupling with compression ball valve

[Derstig]

Hello,

I am in the process of adding compression ball valves on all relevant lines of my piping. I am done with the exception of one location (2x lines for laundry) where the only way to fit the valve is to replace the existing sweat coupling. The required distance for ball valve is 1.5” (pipe to be removed) and the coupling there right now is exactly that length.

It is an extremely tight place that is very close to lots of wood and I dont want to use a torch (I do have a MAP torch though).

My question is, if I cut the existing pipe right where the coupling starts (but not on the coupling and pipe instead), can the existing solder remaining on the pipe cleaned with regular method? I have the emory cloth as well as the circular tool with lots of teeth that you get on the pipe. Would those things be able to remove the solder or would the solder be have to be melted with torch?

 

[Riickk]

To just answer the question, yes, you can clean off the solder with emery paper. It will be a minor PITA but keep at it and it will sand off and allow you to mount the compression nut, etc.

Must it be cut just there? Copper on both ends of the shut-off valve?

 

[Derstig]

To just answer the question, yes, you can clean off the solder with emery paper. It will be a minor PITA but keep at it and it will sand off and allow you to mount the compression nut, etc.

Must it be cut just there? Copper on both ends of the shut-off valve?

what do you mean by cut off there?

The brass shut off valve I got needs exactly 1 1/2” of pipe to be cut. The coupling thats on the pipe is identical length. So if I cut right on the borders of coupling, I just need to clean the small amount of solder on the edges, NOT the portion that is inside the coupling as that pipe will be thrown out.

If you are asking whether I can move the valve elsewhere on that pipe, there is not enough room without getting the valve too close to the wall.

 

[Diehard]

What's wrong with cutting it in to the left of the coupling to avoid an awkward cut at the ends of a coupling and tedious cleaning of the old solder?

 

[Derstig]

What's wrong with cutting it in to the left of the coupling to avoid an awkward cut at the ends of a coupling and tedious cleaning of the old solder?

there is not enough room. If you look at my picture, there are two lines. While one of them might work, the second one does not work. You wont have enough room to slide the nut back. I measured it and the 45 degree up angle blocks it.

 

[Jeff Handy]

Very fine sandpaper can be folded over a few times, into a long thin strip, to give a nice stiff piece to remove lumps of solder.
More accurate than emery cloth, which is really meant to polish up copper before soldering.

Even better might be an emery board, which is used to smooth fingernails.
It is shaped like an oversized popsicle stick.
You can get them at any drug store.
Very easy to use to grind down solder lumps fairly precisely.

 

[Jeff Handy]

https://www.target.com/p/trim-emery-boards-nail-file-20ct/-/A-76557317

 

[Jeff Handy]

 

[Diehard]

Then there's...
https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...JKymWr2xvt26mMCQzKnUuM5y24BWj0k0aAmHxEALw_wcB

 

[Jeff Handy]

Cool tool, but a drill will never fit into the small gap he is working in.

I guess the pipes could move aside, but he might end up removing too much copper.

He needs to attack just the lumps.

 

[fixitron]

In my opinion, you will have a hard time using a tubing cutter because the surface is not even and the cutting wheel will likely not track around in the same groove. You should cut it with a 32 tooth hack saw blade.
I would get an insulating pad (flame barrier) to put between the pipe and wood and then un-solder the joint. Much quicker and cleaner. Your emery clothe will take off copper as well as solder.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

I see what appears to be two 3/4" (maybe they are 1/2"?) copper lines (with 45-degree hand bends in them, no 45- degree couplings!) come from the left, and penetrate through a wood rim. What's on the other side of the rim?

Without some kind of slip coupling, it's very difficult--particularly if there's little movement in the pipes--to remove a piece, and add back a piece. Whether you use a solder fitting, a compression fitting or valve, or even a SharkBite or similar you need to push one end away and then pull it back to make the coupling. Regardless of what kind of fitting you use, you need the pipe cut straight and cleaned.

I had a very similar project, last year. I cut the pipes and added a ball shut off valve. Then I completely redid the plumbing lines from the box in the laundry room all the way down to the valves. The valve box in the laundry room are supposed to be "shut off valves" but even the shut offs need shut offs some times, so kudos to you for doing this.

I'm a firm believer in being able to completely isolate sections of plumbing so you don't have to inconvenience your entire home when working on something. To that end you can't have too many shutoffs!

 

[Derstig]

Thank you for the responses. I have the following question:

- How hard would it be to unsolder that coupling? What if the coupling is one of those that has a stop in the center? That means once solder melts, I wont be able to slide the coupling without moving the entire pipe system.

The pipes go inside the wall and there is laundry room on the other side. They first tee into the valves to connect the washing machine, then continue into the faucet that is attached to the laundry room sink - pretty standard stuff.

I am considering unsoldering at this point and if I am messing with torch to unsolder I might as well solder a new valve as well. I am just not sure how easy it will be to remove that coupling.

oh and the pipe is 1/2”

 

[Jeff Handy]

Post some pics of the pipes on the other side of that joist.

 

[Diehard]

Both of those 2 couplings in your photo have the stops.

If you can't move the piping enough to allow you to pull the pipe clear of the coupling, how would you handle installing the compression ball valves on?

 

[Derstig]

Both of those 2 couplings in your photo have the stops.

If you can't move the piping enough to allow you to pull the pipe clear of the coupling, how would you handle installing the compression ball valves on?

My plan in this case would be to cut the pipe from both ends where the coupling starts/finishes (and maybe use torch first to melt/smoothen the left over solder so that pipe cutter can make a clean cut).

That being said, I’m pretty sure when pipe is cut, there will be flex. Because I installed 4 of these around the house so far and in every instance what appeared like a pipe that wouldnt flex had a lot of room to be moved around as soon as pipe was cut.

Also in this case, please correct me if I’m wrong but unsoldering a soldered coupling isnt as easy as sliding a brand new compression fitting on. In other words, looking at any unsolder video on youtube, I can see some amount of good force is applied due to the extra solder material (even in molten form) between two surfaces.

This is not the case with compression fitting. So my point is, there is added difficulty of removing that coupling “gracefully” by unsoldering due to more friction on the pipe.

Do you agree?

I am also posting a picture of what is on the other side of that pipe.

And you may ask me why go through this headache and here is the reason. There are three pieces of work/repair that I need to perform in the laundry room:

- The hot side of the faucet does not close properly causing a leak. I need to either repair it or replace the entire thing.

- The two shut off valves for the washing machine are completely stuck. No way to shut them off. I need to replace them.

- I am in the process of buying a new washer/dryer.

You can see all these three things can take a few hours each to address and it will be hassle to shut the water to the entire house. Also we use reverse osmosis for drinking water therefore shutting water off means no drinking water. All the more reason why its important to be able to perform repairs around the house with as little disruption as possible.

 

[Diehard]

With all due respect, my question, "If you can't move the piping enough to allow you to pull the pipe clear of the coupling, how would you handle installing the compression ball valves on?" was pretty much rhetorical. I have un-soldered numerous joints and never had any problem pulling them apart.
You really shouldn't have any problem removing those couplings with heat, so long as you protect the surrounding area from the heat.

 

[Derstig]

With all due respect, my question, "If you can't move the piping enough to allow you to pull the pipe clear of the coupling, how would you handle installing the compression ball valves on?" was pretty much rhetorical. I have un-soldered numerous joints and never had any problem pulling them apart.
You really shouldn't have any problem removing those couplings with heat, so long as you protect the surrounding area from the heat.

For protecting the wood, I was considering getting a few pieces of 26 gauge thin metal plates and place them around.

Also for something like this, I suppose you want to put the flux on the pipe so that the solder inside the coupling moves towards the flux? But you heat the coupling or the pipe? If pipe, wouldnt it burn off the flux?

 

[Jeff Handy]

It looks like, once you cut the pipes, they will be able to move apart a few inches at least.
There will be some flex room from the laundry room side.

And if you had to, you could unscrew the two unions at the laundry tub faucet, and the sections of pipe in the laundry room would be totally free and loose.

Meanwhile, unsoldering a pipe and sliding off a coupling is not always easy.
Especially if you are not proficient at soldering, or un-soldering.

The coupling has to be really hot, and you are needing about three hands to be torching while grabbing the old coupling with pliers to twist it off, or just run a pair of channel lock pliers loosely around the pipe and bump off the hot fitting.
Which will drop on the ground, burning hot.

Be careful of solder burns from drips.
Have an extinguisher handy.
Have a hose attached to a water supply right there, if possible.

Get all the nearby wood damp by spraying with a spray bottle.

Reconsider just cutting the coupling off and carefully filing and sanding off the solder debris, until the pipe is smooth enough to get the brass ring on with a good seal.

Or hire a plumber to put the valves on for you, better than starting a fire or getting solder burns.

 

[Derstig]

It looks like, once you cut the pipes, they will be able to move apart a few inches at least.

And if you had to, you could unscrew the two unions at the laundry tub faucet, and the sections of pipe in the laundry room would be totally free and loose.

Meanwhile, unsoldering a pipe and sliding off a coupling is not always easy.
The coupling has to be really hot, and you are needing about three hands to be torching while grabbing the old coupling with pliers to twist it off, or just run a pair of pliers loosely around the pipe and bump off the hot fitting.
Which will drop on the ground, burning hot.

Be careful of solder burns from drips.
Have an extinguisher handy.
Have a hose attached to a water supply right there, if possible.

Get all the nearby wood damp by spraying with a spray bottle.

Reconsider just cutting the pipe and carefully filing off the solder, until the pipe is smooth enough to get the brass ring on with a good seal.

Or hire a plumber to put the valves on for you, better than starting a fire or getting solder burns.

My plan is to simply cut the pipes as close to the coupling as possible.

The distance I need to be cut for the valve is 1 1/2”. The length of that coupling is 1”. That means if I can simply cut that coupling out and melt/clean the remaining solder from the ends, then I’m good.

I dont think unsoldering that coupling has any advantage or purpose whatsoever.

The only reason I even considered the unsoldering was inability to make a clean cut on existing drips of solder.

By the way, nowhere on that pipe (either left of 45 or right) there is more than 3 3/4” of straight pipe UNLESS the coupling is removed. In other words, only if I can remove that coupling and place the valve right where the coupling is I can place the valve. Otherwise, its going to be either too close to the wall or too close to the tee on the left.

The length of this valve end to end is 3 1/2”. Now thats all good but as you know the compression fittings have a nut and sleeve and to be able to put them on, temporarily, you need more pipe to be available to slide them back first, insert the pipe into the fitting, then tighten them. Which is why the only way is to center the valve right on that coupling.

If I knew the plumber would do this to my satisfaction without cutting corners, I would hire him. But you can see how crappy the solder is on those pipes and there are so many like that.

I have had a case, in front of my eyes, a very experienced (and expensive) plumber had a pinhole leak in new soldered join and he literally turned the water off and put more solder and patched it up. After seeing that, I dont think I can trust others.