Main Shut off valve - finally replaced!

[pakle]

For those who have been following my shut off valve saga in several previous posts...

So I texted these 3 pictures of my 25-yr old main shut off valve (gate valve) to 3 plumbers who were highly recommended to me. The work is now done, the gate valve is replaced with a quarter turn. Main shut off now shuts ALL the water in less than a couple minutes.

Can you tell from these pictures if the water heater needed to be moved? That was the million dollar (or $1000) question for these guys. Take your best guess, remember they only had these 3 pics, and I'll post the answer tomorrow.

A) Definitely need to move the water heater - not enough room to access
B) Depends... Need to open up the wall and see what's behind there
C) Nope, can do the work without moving the water heater

 

[pakle]

And this is the faulty gate valve that doesn't shut all the way. Plumber said there's a small piece of solder that is probably blocking the gate from closing entirely. When the builder put it in I guess.

As for the leaky valve under kitchen sink that is on its 3rd valve in 5 yrs, he said it's because the kid didn't put thread compound. So he took it off, put some thread compound, and put the same new Dahl valve back in. Will check later to make sure the leak has stopped. Nothing wrong with the copper pipe, not deformed at all. He advised not touching the other 2 valves next to it that the kid replaced with Dahl, also without thread compound, since they're not leaking. And definitely don't replace the other 11 valves that have the Home Depot cheap Brasscraft on them from 5 yrs ago, sealed up with green deposits.

 

[Twowaxhack]

My question would be could I cut into the wall on the other side.

 

[havasu]

Is it my eyes, or is your water heater mounted crooked?

 

[pakle]

Plumber #1 said A. I could tell he really didn't want to do the work because he told me to 'live with it' and just shut off the water to the whole building from the street every time.
Plumber #2 actually cannot receive texts so he never got my text and refused to let me email him pictures. So I described my setup and he said B because he "didn't have x-ray vision."
Plumber #3 I contacted last and he texted back right away C. Only based on pictures. I didn't believe it and asked if he was sure. He said yes.
PS. My longtime handyman who knows my home & pipes very well said B. Understandable because he's not a plumber and doesn't do this type of work regularly.

I picked Plumber #3 and although he had given me a pretty high quote, I was happy to have him do it because he was certain he didn't need to move the water heater. So when he finished everything (including changing & educating me on the under sink valve) in less than 90 minutes, he halved his quote. I paid him a little extra

 

[pakle]

My question would be could I cut into the wall on the other side.

Plumber #1 did ask that after picking A. Yes, there is a closet on the other side that could provide access. He wanted me to get the handyman to cut the wall open in the closet and give him more pictures, no thanks! I could tell he really didn't want to do the work, and his ballpark estimates reflected that.

Plumber #3 never even asked about the other side of the wall. He didn't even come inside my home until after he was done!

Is it my eyes, or is your water heater mounted crooked?

The stand is perfectly level, I just checked so not sure why the water heater leans a bit. It was put in about 6 months ago.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Plumber number 3 took a chance and it paid off.


He couldn’t see what was in the wall

I don’t run my business like that. I win every time and not by chance.

Im glad you got it taken care of. Have a great weekend

 

[pakle]

I saved all the drywall and wood pieces the plumber cut out, and thought I could just patch the wall myself. But worried about leaving gaps that will allow rats, spiders, etc. to get in there so I'll get the handyman to do it next time. It might be a while, going to wait for a bigger job to combine with this one, so I'll cover the hole with cardboard or thick plastic for now, after I verify in a week that it's not leaking.

Is that an okay thing to do?

 

[Twowaxhack]

The way I see it is that if a rat,spider or a roach is in the wall then they’re in the house.
The idea is to keep them out of the house and that includes the walls.

But sure, cover it with whatever you want just make sure it doesn’t fall off onto the vent of the water heater.

 

[Jeff Handy]

How much was the final bill?

 

[Twowaxhack]

I would’ve charged $250 with the valve based off the time posted.

 

[pakle]

I would’ve charged $250 with the valve based off the time posted.

But sure, cover it with whatever you want just make sure it doesn’t fall off onto the vent of the water heater.

Yes that's why I'm not going to patch it myself, no way I'm messing around with such a sensitive area. I thought about permanently covering with plastic so that I could check it periodically for leaks but due to the ugliness and having to remove & replace the plastic each time for access, family members objected.

Total was $400 plus tax (I heard contractors automatically add a surcharge when they see my zip code) and I happily padded it a bit. It didn't look easy to do at all, very tight spot. I also asked him A LOT of questions (about the other valves, why dishwasher air gap leaking, etc) and he was very patient. One of the other plumbers said his rate was $200/hr which I heard is avg for this area. This guy was something like $140(?). I told him I admired his confidence and skill. He was also honest and told me not to change out any more valves with Dahl until they leak (if it ain't broke don't fix it) when I would've paid him to do it. He even used a wood ladder, haven't seen one of those in a long time!

Even my handyman told me previously he would do it for $500 but I wanted a plumber who could be sure the water heater didn't have to be moved.

Thanks all for the advice!

 

[Jeff Handy]

That looked like a pretty far reach over the heater, so he did well for not moving it.

 

[skeezix]

But sure, cover it with whatever you want just make sure it doesn’t fall off onto the vent of the water heater.

What happens if something falls into the heater vent and sits on the bottom of the tank? When I installed my gas WH a 1-inch piece of 3/4-inch copper pipe bounced into and down the vent pipe. I'm wondering if that's the cause of a peculiar, 5-second hum that occurs each time the burner turns on.

 

[pasadena_commut]

What happens if something falls into the heater vent and sits on the bottom of the tank? When I installed my gas WH a 1-inch piece of 3/4-inch copper pipe bounced into and down the vent pipe. I'm wondering if that's the cause of a peculiar, 5-second hum that occurs each time the burner turns on.

If it went down the vent pipe it should be on the bottom with the burner. On our water heater to light the pilot one must first remove an outer plate and an inner plate. Once those are out that leaves a hole which is roughly 4" x 4" (and partially obstructed by the pipe for the pilot) through which I could easily snag a piece of pipe like that with a coat hanger or grasping tool and drag it out. Obviously turn the heater off first so that it doesn't light up mid retrieval!

 

[Jeff Handy]

When you go in there, I think you have to change the gasket seal that blocks flammable vapors.
To be legal, anyway.

 

[Twowaxhack]

What happens if something falls into the heater vent and sits on the bottom of the tank? When I installed my gas WH a 1-inch piece of 3/4-inch copper pipe bounced into and down the vent pipe. I'm wondering if that's the cause of a peculiar, 5-second hum that occurs each time the burner turns on.

How long ago was this ? I doubt that piece of copper is causing any problems. What brand heater ?

 

[skeezix]

@Twowaxhack and Pasadena_commut...

It's an AO Smith gas heater, 40K BTU, 40-gallon. I installed it one year ago.

Thank you for your replies!

It got me to thinking. So I googled "gas water heater construction" and clicked on the link for "AO Smith". The first image that appeared illustrated how the heater is constructed. Dumb me! I was thinking that the piece of copper pipe was sitting inside the water tank.

Like you, I doubt it's causing any problems. But still, I'm wondering what is causing the hum. As I move my ear from the top to the bottom of the heater the volume is pretty much constant.

 

[pakle]

OP here. So my leaking shut-off valve saga is NOT over sadly ... The one under the kitchen sink is STILL leaking after the plumber put thread compound on the new Dahl. 4th valve leak in the past 12 months! Took me a week to discover this leak because 1) it's so slow that it's not wet everyday, 2) it's actually right behind the valve on the copper pipe so I couldn't see it (my head hits the wall). I discovered it when I put a tissue there and it was wet. It doesn't even appear wet in the picture (had to put the phone behind my head to get the picture). Doesn't look like he put thread compound on the pipe, only on the valve. Not sure if needed to...

So I'm going to let the plumber know. But before I do, wondering what you guys would suggest at this point.
- Have plumber remove it and would putting it back with thread compound on the pipe help? Use a new Dahl valve (still have almost a dozen) at this point.
- Bite the bullet and just cut the pipe to start with newer copper, 4 leaks in 12 months is just too much. Maybe the pipe really is deformed from so many valve changes. Though plumber said the pipe looked fine before he put on the Dahl.
- Ignore it because leak is so slow (might actually seal itself up later?). Maybe not worth it to cut off pipe for such a small leak? Pipe length is not unlimited as you know...

Summary of leaks:
Leak #1 Feb 2020: Kitchen remodel so disconnected water lines under sink. Valve leaked right after disconnect. Handyman put in new valve from Home Depot (cheap Brasscraft)
Leak #2 Feb 2021: A year later, found valve leaking a drop a day in front of nut, handyman put in new Dahl valve
Leak #3 Feb 2021: New Dahl valve still leaking a drop a day in front of nut, plumber put thread compound on valve and same Dahl back in
Leak #4 March 2021: Right now, Dahl valve still leaking maybe half a drop a day, behind the nut at the pipe

 

[Twowaxhack]

And just think, if those valves were soldered on you wouldn’t have a leak.

And if they were compression type stems you could just pop new washers on or just replace all the guts for a few bucks.

Not that I wouldn’t use ballvalve stops, I do and will but there are cons to using them.

The leak may stop or it might get worse. Depends on why it’s leaking. The ferrule might be cracked