Incorrect flue clearance??

[mattaylor]

View attachment ImageUploadedByPlumbing Forum1434232056.585040.jpg

Hi guys
Just wanted some opinions really, I went to service this Glow Worm 30SXi system boiler tonight and I found the flue like this (see picture). I isolated the boiler and put an AT RISK sticker on it, due to the flue being to close to the chimney breast. It wasn't so much the terminals being to close together as the flue being so close to the brick work, which I classed as a wall. The manufacturers instructions stated the flue should terminate 300mm from a wall and 600mm from another terminal.
I was just wondering if anyone thought I had done right? Or have I made a big deal out of it?
I would appreciate any feed back thanks.

 

[frodo]

they pay them engineers a lot of money to write them clearances, code says,,follow manufactures recomendations

you CYA, thats all you can do

 

[mattaylor]

Thanks for the reply.
CYA? Sorry what does that mean
Well I'm going by the book, the thing is the previous plumbers that have serviced it have all passed it no problem and they have had a survey of the house which has passed it as well!
But I would count the brick work of the chimney breast as a wall and it's definitely not 300mm from the bricks.

 

[frodo]

CYA= covered your azz, you documented it, if any problems arise,

 

[mattaylor]

Yeah mate I put a warning notice on it and filled out the reticent forms.

 

[Matt30]

Good on ya.

 

[CHRISM]

View attachment 8702

Hi guys
Just wanted some opinions really, I went to service this Glow Worm 30SXi system boiler tonight and I found the flue like this (see picture). I isolated the boiler and put an AT RISK sticker on it, due to the flue being to close to the chimney breast. It wasn't so much the terminals being to close together as the flue being so close to the brick work, which I classed as a wall. The manufacturers instructions stated the flue should terminate 300mm from a wall and 600mm from another terminal.
I was just wondering if anyone thought I had done right? Or have I made a big deal out of it?
I would appreciate any feed back thanks.

"Hello Matt",

I am guessing that You are a UK based Gas Installer - am I correct ?


I am also a UK based registered Gas Engineer [40 Years +] / Building Services Engineer / Heating and Plumbing Contractor.

I would not class the Brickwork of the chimney as a `Wall` - the Boiler Flue is sited out in enough `Free Airspace` to mean that the safe dispersal of the products of combustion are not affected by the Chimney - even though the Flue is adjacent to the chimney.

And as You mentioned as the Boiler Flue Terminal is not located at the same level as the top of the Chimney the Flue will not be affected by products of combustion from the Chimney.

IF there was a Wall adjacent to the Boiler Flue Terminal it would be a totally different scenario - a Wall could definitely adversely affect the correct / safe dispersal of the products of combustion and the effects of Winds could cause some of the products of combustion to enter the Air Intake section of the Flue - in turn affecting the Combustion process of the Boiler through lack of the correct Air mixture / Oxygen level.

Unfortunately it looks like you may have classified the Flue `At Risk` incorrectly.

And with that comes the fact that at that point You isolated the Boiler from its Gas supply [capped off the pipe] under the Gas Safety Regulations and put an `At Risk` sticker onto it.

As You know If permission to Isolate the Gas Appliance [cap off the gas supply] was not granted or not possible to obtain - the Gas Supplier would have had to be informed - who would have disconnected the property`s Gas Supply to ENSURE that the Boiler could not be used.

They would have taken your word / `diagnosis` as a registered Gas Installer [you would supply them with your Gas Safe registration number] and would have sent an Engineer to disconnect the Home`s Gas supply - that Engineer probably would NOT have become involved in giving His opinion on whether the Boiler was `At Risk` or not - even though He would be working for the Gas Supplier it is very possible that He might not be classed as competent / registered for Boilers / Flues.

IF it was not possible to disconnect externally because the Meter was inside the Home and they were of not able to gain entry they would employ a Locksmith to effect entry to the property.

The Locksmith etc. would then be billed to the Householder.


As You can see in the event of an incorrect `At Risk` or `Immediately Dangerous` classification and IF permission to disconnect the Gas Appliance was refused by the Householder / Responsible person the situation can get quite serious / expensive for the Householder.


Unfortunately the Household now may not have Hot Water [unless they have an Immersion Heater in the Hot Water Cylinder ?] - luckily unless You are located in Scotland most of the UK does not need their Heating systems at present.

I hope that this is helpful Matt - I am not being pedantic in the comments above - I am just trying to be helpful - perhaps you should try and arrange to `re-inspect` the Boiler / Flue and retract the `At Risk` Certificate as other Gas Installers / Gas Engineers would disagree with your `At Risk` classification.


If You want to avoid embarrassment you could tell the Householder that you accidentally read the wrong clearance measurements from the Regulations / Manufacturers Instructions.

You have erred on the side of Safety which is better than missing something which was a Dangerous situation.


Regards,


Chris

 

[Mr_David]

"Hello Matt",

I am guessing that You are a UK based Gas Installer - am I correct ?



Regards,


Chris

Hey CHRISM, I saw this post and thought of you.
I see you are still keeping a eye open on us although I don't see you much.
I knew you would have a good answer for this guy.

I tried to reply but at that time was having trouble posting because they just changed servers

I had made a note to his photo but could not attach it, so I'll just pop it in now after the fact. The distance to me looked more than adequate.
I also would have said I would not have called the chimney a wall.

 

[CHRISM]

Hey CHRISM, I saw this post and thought of you.
I see you are still keeping a eye open on us although I don't see you much.
I knew you would have a good answer for this guy.

I tried to reply but at that time was having trouble posting because they just changed servers

I had made a note to his photo but could not attach it, so I'll just pop it in now after the fact. The distance to me looked more than adequate.
I also would have said I would not have called the chimney a wall.

"Hello Mr David",

Thanks for your message.

I am certain that the Boiler Flue position in relation to the Chimney brickwork would disperse the products of combustion safely into the atmosphere - especially as the Boiler Flue is fan assisted.

And that the Boiler should not be classified as `At Risk` which as the term implies is a very serious Safety / Unsafe Appliance classification here in the UK.


The distance from the Boiler Flue Terminal to the Chimney pot outlet needs to be 600mm or more but this is more applicable if the Flue Terminal and the Chimney pot / outlet or another Flue Terminal are at about the same level - when the Chimney pot / outlet is at a higher level than the Flue Terminal the Flue is not going to be affected by products of combustion from the Chimney as they will be dispersing above the Boiler Flue.


I do hope that I will receive a reply from Matt the original poster.


Regards,

Chris

 

[mattaylor]

Hi guys,
Thanks for the replys.
Yes I am from the UK and I didn't realise this was a U.S. Forum.
I guess it all comes down to how an individual interprets the manufactures instructions? No where within the MI does it give a required distance from the brickwork of a chimney stack. Therefore I took it as a wall, which in theory it is? Although I am a gas safe registered plumber I don't have a vast experience with the servicing and maintenance side of the industry, therefore I "as you say" aired on the side of caution. Which in my view is better than saying "oh it will be alright!" Which a lot of people would do!
If more people were a little cautious about thing the world of gas may be a safer place.
Anyway since then the customer has had the flue repositioned and has had his boiler reinstated.
I do live in England so there was no need for the heating and he had an immersion heater for the hot water.
I do find your comments helpful but I also find them a little patronising, I was only trying to do the right thing after all, maybe next time I should do the service take the money and think no more about it.

 

[phishfood]

Hi guys,
Thanks for the replys.
Yes I am from the UK and I didn't realise this was a U.S. Forum.
I guess it all comes down to how an individual interprets the manufactures instructions? No where within the MI does it give a required distance from the brickwork of a chimney stack. Therefore I took it as a wall, which in theory it is? Although I am a gas safe registered plumber I don't have a vast experience with the servicing and maintenance side of the industry, therefore I "as you say" aired on the side of caution. Which in my view is better than saying "oh it will be alright!" Which a lot of people would do!
If more people were a little cautious about thing the world of gas may be a safer place.
Anyway since then the customer has had the flue repositioned and has had his boiler reinstated.
I do live in England so there was no need for the heating and he had an immersion heater for the hot water.
I do find your comments helpful but I also find them a little patronising, I was only trying to do the right thing after all, maybe next time I should do the service take the money and think no more about it.

This is just my opinion, for what that is worth.

Each and every trade professional needs to do their very best to maintain the safety of their customers. We don't always have the benefit of consulting with a specialty expert onsite to determine if what we are looking at is correct or not, and in those situations I would fall back upon my best interpretation of the code or manufacturer's specifications. It seems as though that is what you did, and i commend you for being willing to take a stance that might have made you unpopular with your customer.

 

[Mr_David]

This is just my opinion, for what that is worth.


willing to take a stance that might have made you unpopular with your customer.

We loose a lot of business because my employer often takes a stance on not what is code and required but on the quality of work that he wants to do.

 

[CHRISM]

Hi guys,
Thanks for the replys.
Yes I am from the UK and I didn't realise this was a U.S. Forum.
I guess it all comes down to how an individual interprets the manufactures instructions? No where within the MI does it give a required distance from the brickwork of a chimney stack. Therefore I took it as a wall, which in theory it is? Although I am a gas safe registered plumber I don't have a vast experience with the servicing and maintenance side of the industry, therefore I "as you say" aired on the side of caution. Which in my view is better than saying "oh it will be alright!" Which a lot of people would do!
If more people were a little cautious about thing the world of gas may be a safer place.
Anyway since then the customer has had the flue repositioned and has had his boiler reinstated.
I do live in England so there was no need for the heating and he had an immersion heater for the hot water.
I do find your comments helpful but I also find them a little patronising, I was only trying to do the right thing after all, maybe next time I should do the service take the money and think no more about it.

"Hello again Matt",


I find it strange that You found my previous comments patronising.


I was trying to give You the CORRECT advice about the Boiler Flue and the FACT that from looking at the Photo it was NOT positioned in an Unsafe position in relation to the Chimney brickwork.


I tried to word my comments in such a way as to not cause You any embarrassment on here - but that is awkward when one has to advise someone that they have made a mistake.

How else should I have worded my comments ?


NOW LETS SEE IF YOU WILL HAVE THE `BRAVADO` TO ANSWER THESE POINTS:


I WONDER HOW MUCH IT COST YOUR CUSTOMER TO HAVE HIS BOILER FLUE REPOSITIONED - WHEN THERE WAS NO NEED TO DO IT ? - PERHAPS £200 or £300 ? - IF HE WAS LUCKY WITH WHO HE EMPLOYED !

You obviously think that You have done nothing wrong - ?


While You have freely admitted that you are inexperienced in the `Service & Maintenance` aspects of the Gas Industry I suppose that You think that SERIOUS ERRORS OF GAS SAFETY JUDGEMENT such as You have just made regarding INCORRECTLY classifying the Boiler / Boiler Flue as `At Risk` are just to be shrugged off as `just one of those things` ?

No doubt You think that the Householder / Property Owner probably spending HUNDREDS OF POUNDS [?] to reposition the Boiler Flue because of your INCORRECT GAS SAFETY CLASSIFICATION is also acceptable - after all it did not cost YOU any money !


SERIOUS GAS SAFETY MISJUDGEMENTS by registered Gas Installers - even when `erring on the side of Safety` can as in this case cost the Homeowner a lot of money.


Gas Installers who carry out Safety Inspections should NOT be making mistakes such as You did regarding the Boiler / Boiler Flue in this thread.

Your Gas Safety `misjudgement` which cost the Homeowner money for unnecessary works should be reported to Gas Safe who would doubtless arrange for You to have an Inspection Visit from a Gas Safe Inspector who would then ascertain by questioning You whether you should be carrying out Gas Safety Inspections and other Gas works.


Your comment here shows Me that you should NOT be in a position to be carrying out Gas Safety Inspections:

QUOTE:

No where within the MI does it give a required distance from the brickwork of a chimney stack. Therefore I took it as a wall, which in theory it is?


Inexperience is one thing - this `lack of engineering judgement` on something so simple tells Me that You will be making plenty more mistakes on Gas Safety Inspections !

And no doubt costing other Homeowners money for unnecessary `Gas Safety remedial works`.


IF it is your idea that `erring on the side of safety` on EVERY point that You are not sure about is acceptable - it is NOT - You are supposed to be informing people about Unsafe Gas Appliances ONLY when they ARE Unsafe - not classifying Appliances as `At Risk` or `Immediately Dangerous` because you don`t know whether they are or not - and `Just covering yourself`.

Gas Safety Inspections are NOT supposed to cost Homeowners money for Safety remedial works unless there definitely is an `At Risk` or `Immediately Dangerous` [or `Not to current Standards`] situation.


CORGI - Who used to be the UK Gas Industry Registration body still produce / sell Gas Safety publications - one of them is titled `The Gas Industry Unsafe Situations Procedure ` and shows examples of `Not to current Standards` - `At Risk` and `Immediately Dangerous` scenarios - I think that it sells at about £9.00 plus P&P - I would advise You to obtain a copy -

website: www.corgi-direct.com

publication link: http://www.corgi-direct.com/corgidirect-the-gas-industry-17858-3420686


My comments above are the statements of a GAS ENGINEER / BUILDING SERVICES ENGINEER / HEATING, PLUMBING & GAS CONTRACTOR - someone with over 45 Years of knowledge and experience in the Gas industry.

The comments are NOT `Patronising` - they are `Straight Talking`.


Chris


P.S. Once again my attempt to help someone on this Forum has resulted in `disagreement` !

I am correct in what I wrote above - BUT - Why do I bother ?

 

[CHRISM]

This is just my opinion, for what that is worth.

Each and every trade professional needs to do their very best to maintain the safety of their customers. We don't always have the benefit of consulting with a specialty expert onsite to determine if what we are looking at is correct or not, and in those situations I would fall back upon my best interpretation of the code or manufacturer's specifications. It seems as though that is what you did, and i commend you for being willing to take a stance that might have made you unpopular with your customer.

"Hello Phishfood",

In this scenario Matt IS supposed to be the `Safety Expert`.

He is registered as a Gas Installer with the UK Gas Safety Mandatory Registration body [Gas Safe] and has had to take Exams / Technical Assessments both Theory and Practical in order to gain categories of `Competence` in order to be registered for various aspects of Gas Work - including the carrying out of Gas Safety Inspections.

In the UK it is Illegal for anyone who is not registered with Gas Safe to carry out ANY Gas work or Inspections.

In case You or other Members might be interested here is the UK Gas Safe website:

http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/ab...0kuJVmIk3yLWAXj5M7Zc8Bkpt1mOpeV__BRoCLYjw_wcB


He and other Gas Installers / Gas Engineers ARE the `specialty experts onsite` that You mentioned when the Gas Safety of a property is determined.

Regards,

Chris

 

[phishfood]

Note to all, this following post is from a member, not from my position as a moderator.

"Hello, ChrisM."

In this case, as in all other cases in which you choose to comment, you are "The Expert", as you never fail to remind us.

And yes, I am definitely intending this to come across with a patronising bent.

In your reply, you never bothered to give us the technical definition of a wall, versus a chimney. Nor did you explain to us why it would be unsafe to have the boiler vent within 300mm of a wall, but safe to have it within 300mm of a masonry chimney. All I can see is that, once again, you are telling another person that they are stupid, and that you are smart.

After your (repeatedly self proclaimed) 40 years in the business, I don't doubt that you have a lot of knowledge and expertise to share with us. So far, I have yet to see you do anything other than denigrate, with almost no attempt to educate.

I have been in the trade roughly half the time that you have, ~20 years. I have people who have been doing this 30+ years who call me to ask me advice, and I will call a 5 year plumber for advice in a short second, if I think that they know something I don't. And it can and does go both ways. Just this week, I had a contractor with 30 years in the business (I started learning about sanitary drainage on a project he was foreman on) call me to assist him in estimating labor on a historic house repipe. 4 months ago, I called a 10 year plumber I know to ask his advice on commercial fixtures.

Stop being a condescending ass, and start offering constructive advice. We will all be better off.

 

[Chris]

I too am curious why being next to a stone chimney is safe and being next to an identical stone wall is not safe? It doesn't make sense unless it matters what is on the other side of the wall?

 

[mattaylor]

Thank you pishfood and Chris!
I was thinking of changing careers after making such a MASSIVE mistake!
You are obviously very knowledgeable about a wide variety of things and know a lot more on these issues than me, but it was half 9 on a Saturday night when I was doing this job (after the customer mithering me all day to go) the last thing I wanted to do was turn his boiler off!
You seem to be saying that I did this to make some money out of the customer? This is not the case, I was far to busy to rectify the issue but I arranged a friend of mine to go round a few days later to move the flue slightly for him. I couldn't bring myself to charge him for my time as I had turned his boiler off (which by the way is the first time I have used any of my warning notices and stickers. I don't just go round condemning boilers for fun) and after explaining the situation to my mate he moved the flue for a very fair price.
Like I said I didn't take this decision lightly and was up most of the night thinking if I had done the right thing or not, hence my post on here! All of this could have been avoided if the manufacturers instructions were followed in the first place! Or if the several plumbers who had serviced it before me had spotted the potential issue.
I agree with what Chris is saying, when is a wall (brick chimney breast) not a wall!?

 

[CHRISM]

Thank you pishfood and Chris!
I was thinking of changing careers after making such a MASSIVE mistake!
You are obviously very knowledgeable about a wide variety of things and know a lot more on these issues than me, but it was half 9 on a Saturday night when I was doing this job (after the customer mithering me all day to go) the last thing I wanted to do was turn his boiler off!
You seem to be saying that I did this to make some money out of the customer? This is not the case, I was far to busy to rectify the issue but I arranged a friend of mine to go round a few days later to move the flue slightly for him. I couldn't bring myself to charge him for my time as I had turned his boiler off (which by the way is the first time I have used any of my warning notices and stickers. I don't just go round condemning boilers for fun) and after explaining the situation to my mate he moved the flue for a very fair price.
Like I said I didn't take this decision lightly and was up most of the night thinking if I had done the right thing or not, hence my post on here! All of this could have been avoided if the manufacturers instructions were followed in the first place! Or if the several plumbers who had serviced it before me had spotted the potential issue.
I agree with what Chris is saying, when is a wall (brick chimney breast) not a wall!?

Matt,

The Boiler Flue was out in `Clear Airspace` - NOT next to a Wall - it is where it is located that makes the difference - IF the Boiler Flue was for example located close to the centre of the Chimney Stack then it WOULD have been too close to a `Wall` - but it is NOT.


The Brick Chimney is not close enough to cause any significant Air turbulence from Winds which could adversely affect the dispersal of the products of combustion from the Boiler or cause any problem with the Air Intake section of the Fan assisted Flue.


If the Boiler Flue was adjacent to a Wall it would have to be at least 300mm away from it because otherwise the Wall could definitely cause Air Turbulence from Winds which could disrupt the safe dispersal of the products of combustion from the Boiler and also possibly cause some of the products of combustion to be sucked into the Air Intake section of the Flue which could cause `Incomplete Combustion` at the Boiler burners.


I did not `explain` the difference between a Wall and the Brick Chimney in this circumstance because I thought that it was obvious - and that explaining the difference would be `patronising`.

For the purposes of Gas Safety and determining clearances from structures etc. a `WALL` would be defined as a `significant structure` the proximity of which could adversely affect the dispersal of the products of combustion from the Flue of a Gas Appliance [my wording].

The significant point regarding the Boiler Flue is that it was `Out in clear airspace` - and it would not have been affected by the proximity of the Chimney.

IF the Flue was located next to the vertical face of the Brick Chimney it would have to be at least 300mm away from that `Wall` of brickwork.



At no point did I suggest that You were trying to make money from the Householder.

Your joke about `changing careers` shows Me that you still don`t think that you made any significant error in incorrectly classifying the Boiler as `At Risk` and causing the Householder to pay to have the Flue `moved slightly` - ?

Whatever amount of money it cost the Householder to have the Boiler Flue `moved slightly` it was an unnecessary expense caused by your `misdiagnosis` / incorrect `At Risk` classification.


The reason why the `Plumbers` who had serviced / inspected the Boiler / Boiler Flue previously did not find any problem with it is because there was NOT any problem with the Boiler Flue as it existed.

The Manufacturers Instructions regarding the location of the Flue Terminal were NOT interpreted incorrectly - the Flue terminal position was acceptable.


When You asked your question on here how would You have liked to be informed that You had made a mistake ?

I thought that my first reply was quite reasonable / polite / detailed - You obviously did not think that.


Chris

 

[CHRISM]

I too am curious why being next to a stone chimney is safe and being next to an identical stone wall is not safe? It doesn't make sense unless it matters what is on the other side of the wall?

"Hello Chris",


The Boiler Flue was out in `Clear Airspace` - NOT next to a Wall - it is where it is located that makes the difference - IF the Boiler Flue was for example located close to the centre of the Chimney Stack then it WOULD have been too close to a `Wall` - but it is NOT.


There is no `Wall Face` / significant structure close enough to cause any Air Turbulence around the Flue Terminal.

In this case it is WHERE the Flue Terminal is located in relation to the Chimney Stack that determines that the Flue is NOT adjacent to a `Wall`.


Regards,

Chris

 

[Chris]

Maybe in the future the UK should make it clear in their training that a chimney is exempt from being classified as a wall so errors like this do not happen? Whoever the engineers that make these regulations are not doing there job properly if there is confusion going on.