Float lever sticking & power to jet pump problem

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Valveman

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I think it is easier to just screw on a 4.5 or 10 gallon size tank than to deal with a union.
 

Zanne

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Ah, I for some reason thought a union would be easier to screw in or unscrew if I had problems because I'd rather not have to rotate the entire tank. I'm worried I'd get it cross-threaded. But if you think turning the whole tank would be easier, I might go with that instead.

I've been trying to figure out the outlet side as well. I have an 18" corrugated hose (fnpt ends) similar to the kind used on water heaters but it's 1-1/4". I plan to try that first, but I want to have spare parts in case it doesn't work out and I have to use something else. So I want to have something for PEX as well. I want to use 1" pex barb since it reduces to 3/4" and I want more flow than if I had a 3/4" barb.

I've added OR coupling to the list. I actually had a coupling in the shopping list just in case. I don't want to waste $ but I also want to have things ready in case something doesn't work out. I think I get that from my dad-- having spare parts around. LOL. Actually came in handy when we had to fix things a few times. Found stuff lying around in bins that were extras.

What I have so far:
1615504742640.png
My brain crapped out on me last night so I didn't finish the outlet side. I couldn't focus enough to figure out how to link things. Depending on how high I end up raising the pump, I'm not sure how much space I'll have between the PVC and the steel hose. I either want it to connect solidly to PVC-- which might require at least one 3/4" elbow or have PEX in between. Since the hose is flexible, I can probably stick with PVC.

It's gonna suck trying to get the solvent weld fittings glued to that inlet side because there is no way to stop the flow of the water from the cistern unless it's empty-- which is probably not going to be the case. Wish I could find glue that could be applied when went. Wish I could fit some temporary cap inside that could be removed once the threaded fitting is on. A reliable potable water safe push-fitting would be nice about then, but I don't think it could work on a suction side.

I wanted the shut-off on the lower part before the elbow but that piece is scabbed together with so many couplings that it's impossible. He cut off the pipe coming out of the cistern so short that if I cut again, there's not enough to put another coupling on. I would have to replace the fitting from the inside and I have no idea how to even get in there and I really don't want to try- I'd probably end up stuck.
 
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Zanne

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I improved and expanded my sketch but it keeps shrinking it so the writing can't be seen. Testing to see how it goes.
1615557534575.png
1615557560483.png

The whole image:
1615557606023.png
 

Zanne

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I wonder if I could use double-sided tape to attach some sort of handles to the pressure tank to make it easier to grip and turn. Doesn't have to be anything fancy, but then again, it might not be necessary.

I'm glad you're learning things, Twowaxhack.
 

Zanne

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I looked at the bottom of one of the burned out 30/50 switches (I got an identical one) and realized it has a female fitting so I will need a male nipple instead of female to attach it-- which is fine. It's less than 50¢ for the part.

In case anyone was wondering what that double pulley-wheel pump sounds like: http://instagr.am/p/CM3kgv2DOfL/
Only it's sound is in the video. I was looking for leaks. Cow decided to give her opinion at one point. If I'm near the sliding glass door, kitchen window, or back door I can hear that pump. The jet pump sounds more like a washing machine.
 

Zanne

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I haven't had any problems for awhile but the block to which the D-switch is mounted managed to shift (possibly from heat) and won't shift back so now the rod is not at the right angle. It turned sideways and got jammed. It made the cistern overflow majorly. I heard the pump running and decided to check and un-jammed it just in time to stop it from rising high enough to hit electrical stuff. It was almost to the bottom of the jet pump. Can't even step in to the pump house right now, but was able to reach in and pull the lever up.

So now I really want to switch to a different and more efficient method. Something more like this (except it would fill the cistern when the water was low instead):
1630736727338.png

Although, imagine the wires going to a pump that is not in the water. As a reminder, the pump is 1HP and V 115/208-230. So, I need a cable float that is rated for potable water, can handle 1hp and the aforementioned voltage (I think it's on 230 but am not certain-- it's got very thick gauge wires right now). I know there were many posts before about setting this up but I never quite wrapped my brain around it all and I need a refresher broken down in terms for dummies. LOL.

I know I will need a float, a pipe (probably PVC), zip tie or something to tether the cable to the pipe (I've noticed the "pivot" thingies for the floats are NOT rated for potable water but the floats themselves are), and some method of connecting the wires to the pump.

I don't want to spend a ton of $ but I want to do this the easiest and simplest way possible. I'd like to order from a known site like Amazon or Lowes or something. So, any product recommendations?
What else would I need? A relay switch of some kind was mentioned before. I believe the well system is on a 30 or 40 amp breaker. Not sure if that matters any. I would prefer something that runs on AC power.

I will need to figure out a good way to attach the PVC pipe so it will stay in place. I imagine a rubber gasket of some sort might be in order for some sort of fitting on top and bottom of where the pipe goes through the hole. I will have to see if the PVC on top of the cistern that used to mount the old switch goes down inside. If not, I can put a pipe through the hole where the float rod goes through. I'm thinking I *might* be able to run the wire inside of the pipe and have it come out through a small hole inside the tank.

So, any suggestions? Please help! My hearing is getting worse so I didn't hear the pump running for too long and it's a royal pain to keep going out and checking. Especially since I can't get through the back door anymore and have to go around from the front.

Editing to add that I found the amps for the pump. It draws 12.2 / 6.0-6.1. I found a float that does 13A up to 250V but only 1/2HP. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KUR867W/

Since it meets the other requirements, do you think it might work? I saw some of the piggyback ones with a plug but have no clue how to connect them to the pump. Parts2O FPW217-180B Tank Float Switch - Sump Pump Accessories - Amazon.com

This one is similar and says it works with 15A 115V. Zoeller 10-0055 Switch-Mate Piggyback Variable Level Float Switch 13 Amp 115 Volt 10ft Cord - Sump Pump Accessories - Amazon.com

There is also this fancy thing, but I don't know if it would work with the thick walls of the cistern. Taidacent Automatic Water Level Controller Automatic Water Pump Controller Either to Fill or Empty a Tank with Two Non Contact Liquid Level Sensors Water Tank Automatic Filling System: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

This one is even fancier and more complicated Hi-Lo Sump Pump Switch, Ortis Electronic Adjustable Float Switch Controller with Dual Sensors, Perfect for Sewage pits, Fish Tank, Water Tank, 220/110 VAC - - Amazon.com

So, any thoughts?
 
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Valveman

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Or you can use a relay from the float switch that can handle the current of the motor.

LOW YIELD WELL_SUB_PK1A.jpg
 

Zanne

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Thanks. I don't believe the fancy orange box thing will work for me but I'm looking at other options.
Electrical Wiring, House Wiring or Home Wiring Complete Guide had a wiring diagram for pumps, although, I'm slightly confused since my brain likes 3D/ photo style images to visualize. It looks like lines are being spliced.
The info it gave was the following
Float Switch Connection:
The float switch consists of three wires. To check the float switch we will set the Multimeter on continuity it contains red, blue and black wires in which black is neutral wire. We will connect the multimeter one probe with the black wire and the other with the blue wire when the float switch will be at bottom it will act as closed circuit and give signal to the motor to turn on. It give beep on multimeter which show that it act as closed circuit. Now connect the one probe of the multimeter with the black and other with the red wire when the float switch will move upward it act like a closed circuit.
Float Switch Working :
We will connect miniature circuit breaker (mcb) which automatically switches off electrical circuit during an abnormal condition of the network means in overload condition as well as a faulty condition with live and neutral wire at input. Connect the output of the mcb with the contactor input. Magnetic Contactor is for lossy magnetic flow generated with current in winding of such devices as transformer, throttles, magnetic cartridges filters and circuit. Output of contactor is connected with the motor. Connect the wire of the float switch with the neutral wire. Connect the L1 of the contactor with the A1. Connect the blue wire of the float switch with the A2 of the contactor.
1631080022077.png
I guess the MCB (Mini Circuit Breaker) is an extra protection of sorts? I'm trying to find the right kind because it's recommended.

I found a float switch with a 5year warranty. Seller gave some details-- said I would need a contactor. My friend thinks my pump has 2 hots and a ground.
Seller's answer:
To be clear, there are two types of 220 V service:
1. The pump received 220 V on a “hot leg“ and has a neutral.
2. The pump has “too hot legs“ which are in all actuality -110 V, and positive 110 V, and a ground.
In scenario number one, the float switch can activate and deactivate the pump directly and should be placed in line on the hot leg.
And scenario number two, a contactor or relay should be used to start and stop the pump, and the float switch should be used to turn the relay on or off.


I honestly don't know how to check which my pump has. But with the voltage mine can pull (up to 230v) it is high voltage and thus a relay is not sturdy enough so it would be a contactor.

The float that comes with the above float switch is not suitable for potable water but the seller linked this SJE Rhombus 1002230 Cable Weight that is rated for potable water.

There is also this switch: Baomain 10M Cable Float Switch Water Level Controller for Tank Pump

As a companion I saw Water Well Submersible Pump Wire Splice Kit Schraiberpump for #10-12-14-16 AWG that would be nicer than using wire nuts. Need to see if I have a heat gun or something somewhere to do the shrink wrap or just tape it with electrical tape out of being lazy.

I'm currently trying to find the right kind of contactor. I need at least 13A (to play on the safe side) but am not sure what voltage. Since the pump can go from 115 or 208-230 and I have no idea how to tell what it is pulling. I wish my pump guy knew about this stuff. I'd ask the local electrician if I could pin him down for more than a few minutes, but I suspect he doesn't know about pump setups.

Another setup I saw from a Youtube video (not always the most reliable sources) shows this wiring diagram:
1631080395716.png

Do I just leave the red line floating and unconnected? Or do I connect it to a ground wire?

I'm hoping that the MCB and contactors will have some sort of instructions on what wires go in and what ones come out. Need to figure out the best way to splice the hot and neutral wires and still have them sealed up nicely.
 

Valveman

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Your main breaker is all you need. No need for the MCB. You only need the two wires in the float switch that make contact when the bulb drops.
 

Zanne

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Ok. I was just thinking the MC might add extra protection in since the breaker in the house is connected to both pumps (air compressor pump and jet pump). Do you think the MCB might get tripped too often in power surges?

I think I might go with the Sump Alarm brand pump since it has a 5 year warranty and fairly decent reviews. I narrowed down the MCB (if I go with one). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08H1RRL43/ seems like it would be more than sufficient and it comes with a little rail to mount it in a box. I could get https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07S75TV3V/ OR Circuit Breaker Distribution Box, Outdoor Waterproof Distribution Box Breaker for 5 WAYS Circuit Breaker Indoor on The Wall - - Amazon.com for the box to keep it protected. I was thinking if I go with that box and the rail thing I could also get a rail mounted contactor. I found a few options that were decent priced but shipping was very high.

Would I need an NC or NO contactor? Or could I just switch the wires on the float depending on which contactor I got? In the "fill" application I think the float is NC and turns off when full. My brain is not wanting to process whether that means I would want contactor always on or always off.

Would Household AC Contactor, 2P 20A 24V 220V/230V 50/60Hz Household AC Contactor 2 Pole DIN Rail Mount 2NO Replacement AC Contactor(24V) work? OR Amazon.com: Heschen Household AC Contactor CT1-63 2 Pole Two Normally Open 220V/240V Coil Voltage 35 mm DIN Rail Mount : Industrial & Scientific ? Saw some more expensive that had terrible reviews. Or do I need a 3-pole contactor?

I found this image from aliexpress (I think the brown wire in this is the equivalent of the red wire in
1631112409428.png

The 1st two diagrams look like they have 3 pole and this one looks like it is 4-pole. Looks like not all of the ports are being used though.
 
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Valveman

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Breakers are made to protect the electric grid from a shorted motor, not to protect the motor. MCB won't hurt but is just another opportunity for a failure. You want things to be normally open, or energize to run. It is more failsafe that way.
 

Zanne

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Ok. So skip the MCB. Got it. Still need to find the right contactor. 2pole? 3 pole?

Is a 13A switch sufficient for a 12.2A (max) motor? I think they said if it uses more voltage it draws lower amps. And I need to figure out if I need an NO or NC contactor.
 

Valveman

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Using a float switch to run a fill pump, you would want a normally closed contact, so the pump starts when the float is down. 2 pole is all you need. And yeah a 13 amp contact is good for 12.2 amps, but just barely. It doesn't hurt to use a higher rated contact because the voltage is not going to increase and make the pump draw lower amps.
 

Zanne

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Hmm. I could have sworn I read that it draws fewer amps when it is running on higher voltage but I could easily be mistaken. My friend confirmed that the pump is wired to run on 230v. I wonder if the seller of the float that I'm considering sells one with 15 or 20amps. I think 15 might be enough. I'm still trying to sort out the wiring in that shed since it is an absolute mess.

Thank you very much for the feedback. Hopefully I can figure out the right setup.
 

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OK I see what you are thinking. And yes a jet pump is dual voltage 115/230. Set on 230V it will draw half the amps as when set on 115V.
 

Zanne

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The seller also said I would need a normally open contactor for the pumping while the float was low. But now I'm confused on which one I need bc I've gotten different answers. LOL. Others have said NC and then others have said NO. LOL. But, I suppose if I get the wrong one I can just reverse the wiring because way signals the contactor to close or open while down and the other tells it to close or open while up. My brain is not wanting to process right now since I'm about to go into a food coma. LOL.

To clarify my question: If the float setup to FILL the tank is set to Normally Closed (which would then send signal to the contactor) does that mean I would need a Normally Open contactor so that it will close (and turn the pump on) when the float is down/closed/on?
 
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Valveman

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Use a normally closed float switch to energize a relay when the float is down. Use a normally open contact in the relay to energize the pump when the float is down. When the float is up the float switch will open, de-energizing the relay and opening the normally open contact that turns the pump off.
 

Zanne

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Do you mean a separate relay or do you mean the contactor acts as a relay?

I discovered that one of the wires from the float switch goes to the pressure switch on the jet pump so I will have to figure out how to tie that in. Could I connect the 3rd (usually set aside) wire of the float to the pressure switch on the jet pump? Or would I have to find some other way to wire it?
 

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So, this is a rough sketch of what I can see of the wiring.
The off-white wire comes out of conduit from the ground and goes to a junction box.
An orange cable (OC1) comes out of the junction box and to the D-box switch on top of the cistern.
A black cable comes from the switch and goes to the air compressor pump.
A second orange cable (OC2) comes out of the switch and goes to the pressure switch on the jet pump.
1631334825860.png

I am not clear how the individual wires connect to the switch and to one another. But this was a wiring diagram I found for the type of switch that I have on the cistern lid. I am not sure which type applies to my setup. I need to learn how to read these diagrams. I assume M = motor. I'm about to watch a video on how to make sense of these sorts of diagrams because I am waaay too rusty on my electronics. LOL.

1631334798917.png
 

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