Field line options and calculations

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Zanne

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Greetings. I am new here and I wanted to get some info/opinions on options for field lines, as well as information on how the different types of options compare.

I currently live on a farm in the middle of the woods on nearly 32 acres of land. The house is on about a 5 acre plot with the septic tank on the west side of the home (close to the southwest corner).

My family purchased the house in the mid 80s and we didn't realize at first that the house had only been a one bedroom home when the septic tank and field line were put in (yes, only one field line that seems to be well over 100 feet long and-- we recently discovered-- too deep just 30 feet from the start.

The house is now 3 bedroom 2 1/3 bath but we had a 500 gallon septic tank. We kept having it drained on a regular schedule until we shipped overseas for my father's job. Unfortunately we ended up with the tenants from hell, but I won't get into the details on that. When we returned the lid to the septic tank was broken (but they had placed flimsy piece of plastic over top to hide it and I nearly fell in when walking over it), all of the vent pipes had been ripped out, and they had not had the septic tank drained in years. We had to have a lot of plumbing redone, but our plumber never mentioned that the tank might be insufficient for the house. Our plumber serviced the house since it was first built and was also the septic tank draining guy up until he was in his late 80s and could no longer walk (he went blind first but he still came out with his son-in-law to help any time we called). He passed away in a few years ago and I have to say I really miss him.

Anyway, ever since we came back we have had a lot of problems. Since the tenants never had the tank drained once in 9 years, the crud backed up into the pipes and also got into the field line. We tried to get someone to look at it a few years ago but he refused to touch it and we didn't know anyone who would come out. Recently the pipes clogged up and our new plumber (who is the son of our old one but doesn't do the septic draining) had to break open the field line and dig a trench to get the water to flow after he snaked it (and snaked from the tank to the house). He had previously told us we might need some pipes redone under the house but was recovering from knee surgery and couldn't do it and no other plumbers would come out to our house.

Getting anyone to come out has been an issue for many years. I guess people are afraid they will hear banjos or something. :p

Anyway, the new septic draining guy finally gave us some information we needed (and I wish he had told us a few years ago when we first started using his services). He gave us the name and number of some septic tank installers and one of them gave me the name and contact info for someone from the board of health who told us what info we needed to bring in and then I did a percolation test. He gave us the permit the same day and said we would need to double the size of our tank (to 1,000 gallons) and have 330ft of field line (in lengths no longer than 100ft each-- bc I believe angle of incline would be about 1/8 inch per foot or less and 100ft would be about 12.5 feet drop). He printed out a list of people who were licensed to install septic tanks and systems (there were absolutely none in my Parish). I ruled out the ones that were several hours away and looked up the ones that I thought were close enough to come out and ruled out ones that had bad ratings. Many of them didn't even have listings in the phone book at all.

Several of them said I lived too far away and wouldn't come out. Many had answering machines. Some said they would call back and only a couple did. Some were licensed but didn't actually install. The price ranges I got were tentatively $2700 to $4000. I think $3100/$3200 was the average. So I have a short list of a few people. I probably would have gone with the first name the septic draining guy gave me had I not been watching the face of the board of health guy when I mentioned the name. His microexpressions indicated he thought it was a bad idea. I mentioned the same installer more than once and each time the guy sort of cringed, but I don't think he realized he was doing it. He said he couldn't recommend any particular installer but he encouraged me to shop around.

Sorry for the babbling. I have a tendency to do so. Anyway, I've narrowed it down to a few people now. One of them was very nice and explained the usual size of the pipes but said there were other options. Unfortunately he was very busy and said that if I didn't need it right away he could come out and take a look. The one that made the sanitarian cringe was very friendly and said something about alternatives but didn't give more details.

Ok, I've digressed enough. Here's what I need to know: Assuming that the sanitarian was expecting a standard installation of 4" pipes without gravel (or possibly with gravel-- there were no details on this on the permit), what are the alternatives and would it make any difference in the required length?

Someone said if they used larger pipes it wouldn't have to be so long, but I don't know. With the current system I will need a distribution box and I was told that would make the price go up. One installer told me that an alternative system might be cheaper in the long run than having to dig 4 trenches.

But what are the other options? I was looking in to Infiltrator Systems but when I contacted them I was e-mailed a phone number but no hours of operation and it turns out the guy was operating from home and he got a tad bit snippy with me for calling on a Friday night when I got home and saw the e-mail. LOL.

I wish I could remember the site, but I found a thing that explained how to calculate percolation and how much line would be needed. This figure is not exact, but it said if the soil was sandy loam it percolated at 2.5 gallons per day and thus needed about 400ft of line. I sort of reverse calculated and determined that my soil is likely around 3 gallons (probably closer to 3.05). When I looked at the .pdf for my state from infiltrator systems it had a chart of chamber sizing in natural soils but I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to calculate what I would need. I know to look in the line under 3 bedroom, but I'm confused about the parts that say "Perc Rate" and "Number of Chambers Per Bedroom (per linear ft)". There were no other descriptions to explain the context.

The permit estimates the average flow as 400GPD, calls for "Septic Tank with Field Line", and specifies the 330 feet. I might just be misreading or misunderstanding things on the percolation thing. I'm new to this so I'm still trying to get the info to sink in.

One of the benefits of the infiltrator system is that it can hold up to 16,000 pounds per axle and can be driven over (if it is at least 12 inches deep) and I have to drive my tractor (which is about 3,000lbs with the bush hog and front-end loader) over it to mow the lawn. I don't know if the regular field lines can handle that. But, I'm wondering what the most cost efficient method would be.

Would the length of the infiltrator system lines be shorter than the standard field line?

Are there alternatives that are just as sturdy but perhaps more cost efficient?

What are the options out there?

Once I have more of an idea of what I want to get, I will then have to see if the installers will use those methods. The video on youtube made infiltrator look easy to install, but I imagine it takes practice and its not something I can do on my own with my health as it is.

Does anyone have pros and cons of the various alternatives available?

I've attached two files. One is the chart of one of the infiltrator things that confused me.

The second is a satellite image of my property with some things marked out (like existing septic tank and field line). yellow dots indicate phone/power poles (all power lines are above ground). Blue splotches are water lines (for hoses). The car port, barn, and workshop have water for hoses but do not connect to the septic system.

Thank you to anyone who takes the time to read and reply. And jeez, my cat is being a pain. She keeps pouncing on me.

(is there a way to make the thumbnails of the attachments larger?)

quickinfiltratorchart.jpg

YardWaterLinesSeptic1.jpg
 
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Sorry to hear you're having such a tough time getting a contractor out to help you. Septic designs can be different from area to area, Although it's hard to get a contractor out I would get info from someone that knows
your area. Have the two contractors come out to give you a bid and ask both about the infiltrator system pros & cons. After the bids talk with the inspector to make sure that everything will be ok with whatever you decided. Be sure to get everything in writing (a contract) and make sure all permits are pulled. I would stay away from contractors that does not answer phones and/or hard to get a hold of. Maybe someone else will come alone with more info. Good luck.
 
Thanks IFIXH20. Many of the ones who did answer the phone did not answer as professionals. They just said "Hello" and I had to ask if they were with x company. LOL. I called over 20 people so I was on the phone quite a bit.

I've been reading some more and I think I'm garnering that some number involving the number of bedrooms (estimated usage) and percolation is divided by the width of the trench. My problem is finding out what the average trench width is. I seem to keep seeing 2' for the pipe and gravel options. IIRC ,the standard Quick4 thing would have a trench that is 3' wide so I would have to divide by 3. If I am right, then 660 was the amount divided by 2 to get the total field line length for 2' wide trenches. So 220 would be the total length of the 3' wide ones. Now the fun would be finding out if they can be installed in longer than 100' lengths so I could either put in a single line or two ones that get at least 110ft. Three ones that approximate 75' would work. But the infiltrators come in 4' lengths. So I would need 19 pieces for each row. So that would be a total of 57 sections and I think the low end estimate of that would be at least $1000 and that is not counting the labor or fittings or tank. If I could do it as a straight shot of one line it would be 55 pieces.

But this is just guesswork here. I'm going to hope that the Sanitarian is in his office tomorrow (he's only in two days a week and only from 8am to 9:30am & 3pm to 4:30pm). Now, I know some of the people are probably out digging and on jobs when I call so I try to factor that in.

I like to at least somewhat understand the mechanics of things.

I know that when I find a contractor I will have to give him the permit info and then tell him to tell the sanitarian when the job is scheduled and make sure its ok with his schedule and then I am supposed to call the sanitarian to make sure that the installer called him and verify the information. Fortunately there is no charge for getting a septic permit here. I wish I could just e-mail him but apparently their network security is set up in such a way that no outside e-mails can get through. It gives a mail failure notice to anyone who tries to send them a message. I don't know if that is on purpose or not though.

Does anyone know if I'm just wrong on my calculations?

I'm going to try to get in touch with the sanitarian on Monday and hope that he can clarify just what the perc results were and what size field line he had in mind when he gave the field line length.
 
Zanne , my calculations for 330' of infiltrator system would be 70 to 80 chambers (4ft per chamber) plus distribution box , etc. Looks like you will need four rows due to rows can't be longer than 100' per inspector and infiltrator system manufacturer. My calculations may be off as well.
 
Zanne , my calculations for 330' of infiltrator system would be 70 to 80 chambers (4ft per chamber) plus distribution box , etc. Looks like you will need four rows due to rows can't be longer than 100' per inspector and infiltrator system manufacturer. My calculations may be off as well.

See, I think the 330ft was if the infiltrator was 2ft wide, but the infiltrator Quick4 thing is 3ft wide, so the overall length would be shorter (only 220ft). That is assuming that the width would decrease the length. The literature for the infiltrators says that they require less length than standard pipe and gravel.

Are there other products similar to the infiltrator that are less expensive but just as good?

I wonder if any of the septic guys who never called back would be offended about being called on a Sunday....
 
Zanne , you are correct infiltrator system does require less length. I've read anywhere from 10 - 50 percent less length, How much will depend on the area you're in and the other factors that go into designing a system. Try calling the manufacturer or the inspector tomorrow , the septic guy more than likely is taking emergency calls only today.
 
I gotta give a shout out to IFIXH2O on this thread for his time and patience. Any other visitors to this thread should know that all members that respond are volunteers and enthusiasts who are passionate about their trade and do not get paid for the help that they provide. It is simply out of kindness and a willingness to help others.
Well done, IFIXH2O.:D
 
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I gotta give a shout out to IFIXH2O on this thread for his time and patience. Any other visitors to this thread should know that all members that respond are volunteers and enthusiasts who are passionate about their trade and do not get paid for the help that they provide. It is simply out of kindness and a willingness to help others.
Well done, IFIXH2O.:D

Yes, I really appreciate it. :)
I know some of the info isn't necessary for me to know on my end, but I like to know how things work and how they determine certain things. Not that I don't trust the professionals, but I've found that it helps to know things so I can at least have a general idea when something is not right. I probably watch too much Holmes on Holmes. LOL.

Plus, I just enjoy learning and I find it fascinating to at least get some insight into this field (no pun intended). It gives a greater appreciation for just how complex it is.

I'm waiting until a little after 8am to call the sanitarian and I told the sales guy from Infiltrator Systems that I would call at 9am.

Do septic tank installers normally charge to come out and give an estimate? I haven't had any of them mention that, but I want to know ahead of time so I won't be surprised if they ask for gas money.

Edit: Talked to the sanitarian and he said the percolation was 6" per hour. He also confirmed that the 330ft length was for standard pipe and gravel 2' wide installation and that the infiltrator stuff would reduce the overall length. I'm looking at the chart and the Quick4 36 & 24 would be down to 252ft. Still pretty long. I'm trying to find out the reduction for some of the other products and then ask the septic guys about them. There is one that is actually 3' wide, but I don't see the length reduction for that one.

The sanitarian asked why I wanted to know and I said that I like to know these things and that the info packet he ave me didn't have enough info for me. I'm such a pain. :D

Edit again: I talked to the guy from Infiltrator systems and he told me there is only one type of chamber approved for this state and then he gave me a list that he had of people who were licensed to install and who dealt with this system. I just got off the phone with one septic guy and am going to call the next ones to see if their bids are different. The first guy said he normally didn't tell customers the itemized details, but since I had done my research he felt he should tell me.
 
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Ok, maybe someone can let me know if this sounds hinky, but the installer that my septic drainer guy (what is the proper title for that?) recommended tried to tell me that he spoke to the supervisor of the sanitarian who gave me the permit. He claimed he was told that he would only need 198ft of the infiltrator stuff. I told him I didn't think so because I had the documentation in front of me and if the perc rate is 6inches per hour the recommendation for the equalizer36 was 252ft. The guy had been insisting it was 198ft and that he could do it all in one shot (longer than 100ft allowed) and "they can't stop (him)". I told him I wanted it to code and he said 2 lines then. After I mentioned the documentation, he said he would call the sanitarian this afternoon to ask him. I left a message for the sanitarian informing him that the guy said he would call to clarify and that I would appreciate having him call me back to verify that the guy was being honest with me. Btw, he still wanted to charge $3100 to $3200 despite it supposedly taking fewer chambers.

Another guy I spoke to said that the invoice said the chambers were $14.10 ea and that I would need 6 end caps (I forgot to ask the price of end caps). He said he charged $3 a foot for part of the labor or something and said the total would still be close to the $2700 originally quoted. I fully expect it to be over that. He gave me his e-mail address so I could send him the satellite shot and information from the permit. I made sure to tell him that I had my own guy to drain the tank so that was taken care of.

Another guy recommended by my septic guy was nice and reasonable but said he's booked up for the next 3 weeks.

Oh, when I was on the phone with the guy from Infiltrator Systems he had a list of people who his company knew were installers and he e-mailed it to me. He was reading from the list and one of the first ones he mentioned was one that said it was too far to come out here.

Everyone was pleasant on the phone at least. I'm debating whether or not to call the people in the other area code that I have to use the cellphone to call. I have this retarded long distance plan that lets me call outside my area code but not within my area code. I have no idea why.

I digressed alot... Do you think I should avoid that one guy who is saying 198ft? Or does it sound like an honest mistake or misunderstanding? I admit I didn't like how he said he could break the rules and they couldn't stop him. I wonder if he can lose his license for stuff like that.

Edit: Talked to sanitarian again. He confirmed that bc EQ36 has 40% reduction, it would be 198. Since it is 4' lengths it would be 200'. So I'll only use two lines. However, he was not happy when I told him what the one guy said about them not being able to stop him if he wanted to do it in one run. I was told he could have his license pulled. He still wanted $3200 or so. The other guy said about $2800. Next Monday he can come take a look and do the planning and such.

Edit2: I just found out that the septic tank he uses was designed and patented by his father-in-law but I have yet to learn anything more about it. He said he would send me a pamphlet. I'm going to ask for the patent # so I can look it up. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but I wonder if it makes the install more expensive or less expensive and whether or not I could ask him to install a different tank of my choice without him feeling insulted. But then, I'm not sure what tank to go with. He said the tank is rectangular, cement, and steel reinforced.
 
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Zanne, looks like your are at the point of choosing a contractor. I would ask both for three references to help make your decision a little easier. Remember cheaper is not always better. Good Luck.
 
I ruled out the one that said the board of health couldn't stop him from doing the length longer than allowed by code. I also ruled out the one who was booked up because he simply isn't available and my drain field line is currently broken so I need the new system in place sooner rather than later.

I kept getting answering machines from other contractors and never got callbacks.

Ultimately, my mother said she wanted to go with the cheapest bid, but he did give references and I've corresponded with him via e-mail. I let him know that being honest with me about the prices on things helped with the decision (my mother is a widow and has never been on her own so I live with her and take care of her).

I'm going to ask him for the patent # for the septic tank he wants to install. That is the one thing that I'm a bit nervous about right now. The sanitarian will be out there when the job is being done so he can watch to make sure things are being done right.

Considering the old tank was just a 500gallon cylinder with no baffles or anything-- just a line in and a line out and the old field line was put in at too steep an angle and was only a single line and was longer than 100ft, I'm hoping that the new system won't be any worse. I'm sure life could show me how things could get worse, but I'm trying to be optimistic.

I will put new batteries in my camera and take pictures of the process.

Thanks for the wishes of good luck! I appreciate the support-- even if its just virtual online well-wishes. :)
 
Ok, so I checked the company that makes the new septic tank and it has no complaints with BBB. That's the good news. The bad news is there was an issue with the weather and the tank wasn't available for installation today. My septic tank draining guy came out and then said he would have to drain it right before it was filled in. I didn't find out about the cancellation until it was too late to tell him, so he was miffed. Then he went off trashtalking the father-in-law of the installer and the system and then he accused the board of health people of taking bribes and told me he was going to charge me extra when he came back the next day-- which was when I thought the installation would happen. Turns out he used to work for the father-in-law but the guy stopped doing business with him because he didn't fully drain the tanks. This was further backed up by board of health indicating there had been a complaint that he wasn't draining fully and he was mad at them for making him drain the tank all the way.

Installer called back to say its a no go because board of health is not available until Friday. BUT, because my roads aren't paved and some laws about large trucks not being allowed on the road within 24 hours of substantial rain, we don't know if Friday will be a go or not either because the weather forecast was indicating definite rain on Wednesday and possible rain on Thursday and Friday. The next available day for board of health people is the following Friday so it would have to be put off longer. The installer apologized profusely for the holdup, but there are things beyond his control.

And to give me another kick in the pants, my water pump just stopped working so I have no running water. I have to call the pump guy in the morning and hope he can come out and take a look at it.

The other good news is, once this tank is installed, it only has to be drained once every 8 years.
 
In an update, the guy from the Dept of Health suddenly decided that he would require a detailed sketch of the plans for the septic system, which the installer faxed to him Tuesday. After not hearing back from him by Wednesday, the installer found a way to get in touch with him yesterday. He had not received the fax. So the installer faxed again and then had to get in touch via other parties to finally find out that the dept of health's fax machine had been out of paper for a week and nobody had noticed. So there were over 50 faxes and now the guy had to go through all of them and said he would get back to him once he had time to go over the details of the sketch. So the installation has been postponed until next Friday.

At least it is one more week for the concrete to cure on the new tank.
 
I met with the installer today. He looks much younger than I'd expected. We talked about placement of the tank and such. He wants to dig up the old tank, mash it up, and put the new one in its place. We discussed where vehicles normally drive and such and he decided to have a stretch of 4" pipe out to where the effluent reduction system will go-- which is in a place where vehicles will not be driving-- and then talked about where to put things.
He said it looks like it should be a straightforward job. I'm hoping he's right and that there won't be any problems.

If all goes to plan, the tank is going in this Friday. *knocks on wood*

Wish me luck!
 
GOOD LUCK -- Sounds like you finally got some good news.
 
GOOD LUCK -- Sounds like you finally got some good news.

Yeah, and then it went and rained AND the guy from board of health was not in his office at all this week and we haven't been able to get in touch with him. If we don't get in touch with him before 10am tomorrow, the installation is halted because the guy can't do it without the inspector coming out. There is only one inspector for this area and he covers multiple Parishes.

It didn't rain enough to stop the installation though. But until we hear from the board of health guy, we can't move forward. The installer and I are both rather frustrated over the lack of communications. It's not the inspector's fault that the office is understaffed. But they need to make arrangements so he can be contacted when not in the office because it is ridiculous that people can't get in touch with him at all for an entire week. They need to improve their communication system.
 

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