Daaaaaaamn she got that hour glass shape
Failing copper joins during soldering
- Thread starter bawldiggle
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bawldiggle
Active Member
I might be past my use-by-date BUT some things I have never forgotten. 
Same as you. Top fitting is female, second is male.
I did track down a Tee from a local supplier using the web ...
- only problem is this one points up, I will have to locate a "pointing down" version
- after I have found where to buy a size 4 "long wait."
Same as you. Top fitting is female, second is male.
I did track down a Tee from a local supplier using the web ...
- only problem is this one points up, I will have to locate a "pointing down" version
- after I have found where to buy a size 4 "long wait."
Last edited:
jwwing
Well-Known Member
Some responders have touched on it, but the problem that you are having is caused by too much heat - when you get it too hot and then fail to provide the proper amount of solder, the joint does not 'fill'. What I did to stop this from happening is to continue to feed solder into the joint as it cools. After it shows full (solder all around the joint) pull the heat away and as it cools make sure that new solder is applied around the entire joint until it sets. When it sets, it should be shiny, not dullish (cold solder joint).
The others who talked about water and all are correct, I am assuming that those are not your problem. Heat the fittings from the middle so that the hottest part is in the middle. Then when you remove the heat, they will stay hot longer - apply the solder all the way around the fitting and keep applying it by rubbing the solder wire end along the joint as far as you can around it - then the joint will fill and not leak.
I learned this on my first attempt at soldering copper. In 1972 I ran a 3000 sq ft house on a hot water system using 3/4" pipes and three or four zones. I had many many joints and when I pressurized the whole thing almost 90% of the joints that I had made leaked. I drained the system and reworked all of those joints in the manner described whether I saw a leak or not. As far as I know that system is still working today.
The main thing is - apply heat at the middle of the fitting away from the place where the joint is located, when the solder starts to melt, apply solder all around the joint, pull the heat away and continue to apply the solder till the joint stops taking solder. It should end up shiny all around the joint. You will get the knack of it quickly.
The others who talked about water and all are correct, I am assuming that those are not your problem. Heat the fittings from the middle so that the hottest part is in the middle. Then when you remove the heat, they will stay hot longer - apply the solder all the way around the fitting and keep applying it by rubbing the solder wire end along the joint as far as you can around it - then the joint will fill and not leak.
I learned this on my first attempt at soldering copper. In 1972 I ran a 3000 sq ft house on a hot water system using 3/4" pipes and three or four zones. I had many many joints and when I pressurized the whole thing almost 90% of the joints that I had made leaked. I drained the system and reworked all of those joints in the manner described whether I saw a leak or not. As far as I know that system is still working today.
The main thing is - apply heat at the middle of the fitting away from the place where the joint is located, when the solder starts to melt, apply solder all around the joint, pull the heat away and continue to apply the solder till the joint stops taking solder. It should end up shiny all around the joint. You will get the knack of it quickly.
jwwing
Well-Known Member
BTW, that patch job that you showed in one of the pictures is a superior and expensive connection process called SharkBite that should not require soldering and might work better for your situation than soldered. Why didn't you use more of that system? I have used it on an RV and was very satisfied with how it sealed.
"Hello bawldiggle",
You have been given some very good advice by Members:
The amount of Heat applied to the pipe and fittings when soldering is crucial - too much and You will burn off the Flux causing the joint to fail.
Water / Steam in the pipework will cause You problems when soldering - You must deal with that using the advice given by other Members.
As You have been successful with the pipe sections and soldered joints that You prefabricated out of position [obviously heated correctly] and You have mentioned that You are having difficulty in applying the solder wire to fittings that have to be soldered within the crawl space I suggest that You buy some Solder Ring fittings - fittings that already have the solder contained within them - and use them in the positions where it is awkward to apply solder yourself - but obviously You must ensure that you have mastered the Heating of the Pipe and Fittings [to apply within the crawl space] before soldering those fittings.
With the correct amount of Heat applied around the Fittings and Pipe the solder within the Solder Ring fittings will run around the joints and there will be no need for You to apply any additional solder where it is awkward to access the fittings with solder wire.
Although the Solder Ring fittings will be more expensive than the End Feed fittings just buying a few for the hard to access positions should not be prohibitively expensive.
Good Luck in completing your Plumbing pipework successfully.
Regards,
Chris
You have been given some very good advice by Members:
The amount of Heat applied to the pipe and fittings when soldering is crucial - too much and You will burn off the Flux causing the joint to fail.
Water / Steam in the pipework will cause You problems when soldering - You must deal with that using the advice given by other Members.
As You have been successful with the pipe sections and soldered joints that You prefabricated out of position [obviously heated correctly] and You have mentioned that You are having difficulty in applying the solder wire to fittings that have to be soldered within the crawl space I suggest that You buy some Solder Ring fittings - fittings that already have the solder contained within them - and use them in the positions where it is awkward to apply solder yourself - but obviously You must ensure that you have mastered the Heating of the Pipe and Fittings [to apply within the crawl space] before soldering those fittings.
With the correct amount of Heat applied around the Fittings and Pipe the solder within the Solder Ring fittings will run around the joints and there will be no need for You to apply any additional solder where it is awkward to access the fittings with solder wire.
Although the Solder Ring fittings will be more expensive than the End Feed fittings just buying a few for the hard to access positions should not be prohibitively expensive.
Good Luck in completing your Plumbing pipework successfully.
Regards,
Chris
Last edited:
bawldiggle
Active Member
APOLOGIES
Sorry I have not replied to ALL of you before today.
My wife has just had her third lot of major surgery for cancer. For about 6 weeks I have had to put all my time and energies into nursing her and being a house-husband.
Not an easy time for either of us.
And then about 4 weeks ago my left knee gave out. Very sore and impossible to exert any pressure on it. I ended up having to buy very expensive GEL type knee pads, which sort of gave a little relief but I just had to stay off my knees all together.
A lesson in "protective clothing" . . . . Wise after the event!
PLUMBING
Water in the line is the obvious culprit. And I really had ignored the steam issue. I have been making sure I remove a fawcet-spindle some where in the line to allow for air expansion ... nothing more frustrating to watch air pressure slide a hot joint apart, in a closed system.
@ chrism . .
You raise an excellent idea to use pre-soldered fittings.
I have some 30 year old brass pre-soldered fittings (left over from my very first attempt to solder). I have steered clear of using them because the brass requires a lot more heat (due to its mass) than copper fittings. Too much heat and I anneal the copper pipe creating a weak point to fatigue and fail (current dry joints are in a hot water feed).
I was also trying to adhere to a leadless system (we are not subject to leadless law here yet) but I have decided to just use pre-soldered copper if I can find it.
Our local massive hardware depot does not stock pre-soldered fittings at all.
@ jwwing
I have a few sticks (½inch thick) of leaded solder I have had for about 30 years. I am so tempted to just flood the last difficult join with solder, because any wire solder (bent into an "L" shape to touch the top of the joint) reaches its "end".
Laying on my back (cannot sit or even prop up) there is 2½ inches of head clearance to the fitting.
Sharkbites.
I don't have much faith in them. As a general contractor I have had callouts by insurance companies to repair buildings where "plastic" stuff has failed. Some of them Sharkbites. And under the house/floor I would never know there is a leak until we developed damp problems in carpets and walls.
Sharkbite end stops have been handy while building the new system. I cap off the end and water test the system so far. Which was a good idea to start with until the pipe work got more complex and I have hit long horizontal runs of pipe slowly feeding water into new hot joins. Steam and wash-outs of flux!
I made up a device using Sharkbite stops and a garden hose connection to test prefabricated manifolds. It works a treat. My problems started when trying to install the manifolds into the system.
< photo of test gear >
FINAL SOLUTION
I am going to shut the entire hot system down and drain it entirely. Disconnecting the line at the HWS and remove every faucet spindle in the house to allow drain back.
Then install a number of the plugged Tees into the lines at lowest points. About 4 in all.
Then use chrisms's idea of pre-soldered fitting for the difficult access points.
I am hoping to get some help for my wife for a day while I tackle the last three joints.
Thank you to every one for your support. I will be back with a report which ever way it finishes.
Regards to all
Bawldiggle .. the bald won
Sorry I have not replied to ALL of you before today.
My wife has just had her third lot of major surgery for cancer. For about 6 weeks I have had to put all my time and energies into nursing her and being a house-husband.
Not an easy time for either of us.
And then about 4 weeks ago my left knee gave out. Very sore and impossible to exert any pressure on it. I ended up having to buy very expensive GEL type knee pads, which sort of gave a little relief but I just had to stay off my knees all together.
A lesson in "protective clothing" . . . . Wise after the event!
PLUMBING
Water in the line is the obvious culprit. And I really had ignored the steam issue. I have been making sure I remove a fawcet-spindle some where in the line to allow for air expansion ... nothing more frustrating to watch air pressure slide a hot joint apart, in a closed system.
@ chrism . .
You raise an excellent idea to use pre-soldered fittings.
I have some 30 year old brass pre-soldered fittings (left over from my very first attempt to solder). I have steered clear of using them because the brass requires a lot more heat (due to its mass) than copper fittings. Too much heat and I anneal the copper pipe creating a weak point to fatigue and fail (current dry joints are in a hot water feed).
I was also trying to adhere to a leadless system (we are not subject to leadless law here yet) but I have decided to just use pre-soldered copper if I can find it.
Our local massive hardware depot does not stock pre-soldered fittings at all.
@ jwwing
I have a few sticks (½inch thick) of leaded solder I have had for about 30 years. I am so tempted to just flood the last difficult join with solder, because any wire solder (bent into an "L" shape to touch the top of the joint) reaches its "end".
Laying on my back (cannot sit or even prop up) there is 2½ inches of head clearance to the fitting.
Sharkbites.
I don't have much faith in them. As a general contractor I have had callouts by insurance companies to repair buildings where "plastic" stuff has failed. Some of them Sharkbites. And under the house/floor I would never know there is a leak until we developed damp problems in carpets and walls.
Sharkbite end stops have been handy while building the new system. I cap off the end and water test the system so far. Which was a good idea to start with until the pipe work got more complex and I have hit long horizontal runs of pipe slowly feeding water into new hot joins. Steam and wash-outs of flux!
I made up a device using Sharkbite stops and a garden hose connection to test prefabricated manifolds. It works a treat. My problems started when trying to install the manifolds into the system.
< photo of test gear >
FINAL SOLUTION
I am going to shut the entire hot system down and drain it entirely. Disconnecting the line at the HWS and remove every faucet spindle in the house to allow drain back.
Then install a number of the plugged Tees into the lines at lowest points. About 4 in all.
Then use chrisms's idea of pre-soldered fitting for the difficult access points.
I am hoping to get some help for my wife for a day while I tackle the last three joints.
Thank you to every one for your support. I will be back with a report which ever way it finishes.
Regards to all
Bawldiggle .. the bald won
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May as well do it right the first time. Solder is the way to go. You will only do it all over again with shark bite / push fittings.
Bawldiggle, I'm sorry to hear about your wife's battle. I hope all works out for her.
Also....I hope you are wearing eye protection. In a space like that, a splatter of flux or solder and you're in a world of trouble if that gets in your eye
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bawldiggle, i did not read all 3 pages, but this is my technique for water in pipes.
open faucets in the house, and outdoor hosebibs, using an air compressor blow the water out of the piping.
if an air compressor is not available. use a bicycle pump., cut the valve stem adapter off and stick hose in a valve
open faucets in the house, and outdoor hosebibs, using an air compressor blow the water out of the piping.
if an air compressor is not available. use a bicycle pump., cut the valve stem adapter off and stick hose in a valve
Bawldiggle, I hope your wife and you have quick recoveries.
