Diagnosing Well Water Pressure Problem

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Gpag

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I need some advice about my well water system. I don't know if I have two problems or one.
I noticed a water pressure and flow problem the last two days. Usually this means I need to replace the whole house water filter cartridge, but I just did that last week. I don't have any regular schedule for changing the cartridge. Usually what happens is as the filter gets old and pressure starts to drop the shower valve will start to whistle and I know it's time to change the filter.

The problem now is that when you turn on a tap there is decent flow and pressure for maybe two seconds and then it starts to drop off. Flow volume continues to drop as the water tank pressure drops. Since I recently replaced the filter cartridge, I started trying to find the problem by looking at the tank pressure. More about that later.

After playing with the tank did not make a difference in water flow, I took the filter cartridge out of the filter housing to see if that made a difference. It made a big difference. Turning on a tap, again there was strong pressure and flow for about a second or two and then it dropped off a little but stayed steady after that initial drop. So, I need to get a new filter, but I'm wondering if something else could be going on with the whole house filter since I just changed the cartridge. There was not a lot of sediment, and the filter did not look bad. Can the housing itself fail?

For the tank, when I was testing it, I got the following numbers:
  • Pump cut-on pressure 38 PSI
  • Pump cut-out pressure 68 PSI
  • With the tank drained the air pressure was 28 PSI
  • The pressure switch says it is a 40 on / 60 off switch
After I drained the tank I shook it to make sure there was no water in it. I added air to bring the pressure up to 36 or 37 PSI. Once I added air, I let the tank sit empty for a while to see if the pressure held. It did but I'll check it again tomorrow. I turned the pump on to re-fill the tank and checked the water flow at a tap. Nothing had changed. The water flow still dropped off as the tank pressure went down and continued to drop to a small steady flow until the pump kicked in. When it did, the water flow didn't improve much. This was all with the filter cartridge in place.

Aside from needing a new cartridge for the filter, I'm wondering about the tank pressures. Is it bad to have a 40/60 switch set to 68? Should I lower the cut-out pressure to be 60? Do any of these numbers indicate there could be a tank problem? Is there anything else I should look at?
Thanks
 
If you have gate valves the gate can come off the stem and not open fully. This will cause the flow to drop off dramatically after a second or two.

Check to make sure your valves are completely open. If you have gate valves, replace them with ballvalves
 
Ball valves on the water tank and on the input and output side of the filter. First ting I checked was to make sure they were completely open.
 
It is very common to see a 40/60 pressure switch tweaked to widen the band like 38/68. This shows when someone is trying to limit the pump cycles. This only helps cycling by a tiny amount and causes the pressure to fluctuate dramatically. Without even considering the loses of the filter, when the pump is cycling and the pressure is close to 68 you have almost twice as much pressure as when it is close to 38 and the pump is about to come on. When the tank is draining and the pressure is close to 38, you probably only have 28 at the shower because of the loss in the filter.

I know it sounds counter intuitive, because it is, but a smaller pressure tank with a Cycle Stop Valve will make the pressure MUCH stronger. The small tank will be empty in a very short time as the pressure drops from 60 to 40. Then the CSV will take over and hold a strong constant 50 PSI for as long as anyone is in the shower. I use a 50/70 switch with a 10 gallon size tank and have 60 PSI constant from my CSV. I don't even need soap as my shower pressure will peel your skin off. Lol!
 
Wouldn't that make the pump cycle on and off more, in urn, shortening pump life? In my research I've read that more frequent cycling can also lead to stirring up more sediment in the well and thus in the water. How do you arrive at the proper balance between maintaining pressure vs. pump life vs. sediment?
 
Wouldn't that make the pump cycle on and off more, in urn, shortening pump life? In my research I've read that more frequent cycling can also lead to stirring up more sediment in the well and thus in the water. How do you arrive at the proper balance between maintaining pressure vs. pump life vs. sediment?
You are right that pump cycling can stir up sediment as well as destroys the pump and everything in a pump system. But a Cycle Stop Valve does just what its name implies and stops pump cycling. Like I said, it is counter intuitive but the CSV will not only make the pump and everything else last longer but it will also keep the well from being surged up and down, which reduces sediment. Other beneficial side effects of the CSV include being able to use a much smaller and less expensive pressure tank, and strong constant pressure in the shower.
 
I just put in a new filter and have the usual water flow back. I usually use the black carbon filters but used a white one this time so it is easier to tell when it gets bad. Filling the clear housing, I did notice sediment in the water. I hadn't noticed that before but that could be just because the black filter hid it.
It seems the information about CSV valves is all over the map. After looking online, I don't know whether the pump cycles more, if it cycles less, if it's good for the pump or bad for the pump. There's the information from the guy who makes them and the information from the crazy guy who seems to think they are as bogus as perpetual motion machines and the fountain of youth.
 
I just put in a new filter and have the usual water flow back. I usually use the black carbon filters but used a white one this time so it is easier to tell when it gets bad. Filling the clear housing, I did notice sediment in the water. I hadn't noticed that before but that could be just because the black filter hid it.
It seems the information about CSV valves is all over the map. After looking online, I don't know whether the pump cycles more, if it cycles less, if it's good for the pump or bad for the pump. There's the information from the guy who makes them and the information from the crazy guy who seems to think they are as bogus as perpetual motion machines and the fountain of youth.
Lol! I think I have been insulted. I hate to toot my own horn. But I have a Masters License in water well drilling and pump installation, 55 years experience, several US patents, and hundreds of 5 star reviews over 30 years of selling Cycle Stop Valves. I know the CSV sounds too good to be true, but that doesn't mean it is not true.

It is only a 200 dollar valve, and if you don't like it for ANY reason you can send it back for a full refund. In 0ver 30 years and millions sold, I have only had 3 people return a CSV. Those three people just didn't know anymore about pumps than the "crazy guy" who makes videos about how to make your under ware fit looser. Wow! :eek:

Even though Youtube has rules against slander, liable, and misinformation, they actually promote fake news as it gets them 6 times more clicks than real news. So, I understand your hesitation as you cannot trust anything you see on Youtube.

Here are several hundred reviews, with pictures, from people who have actually tried a CSV and know how good they are.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews
The CSV even solved the problems at NASA on a system for the space shuttle, and we have a letter from a NASA engineer to prove how well it worked.

https://forum.cyclestopvalves.com/index.php?topic=2088.msg3075#msg3075
NASA 1.jpg
NASA 2.jpg
 
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Cary, didn't mean to insult anyone, except maybe the crazy guy. He is way over the top. I'm just the type of person who, when researching a product, likes to find test results done by independent parties with no financial interest in the product. There is lots of technical information on your site and lots of positive reviews. I can also find conflicting information and negative reviews. Not being a pump engineer I'm just trying to get as much information as possible to decide if a CSV is beneficial for my configuration - which does not involve launching rockets into space or irrigation of crops.
I have a Well-X-Trol WX-203 tank that has a capacity of 32 gallons for a 4 bedroom house with only two occupants. I do have a 6 zone irrigation system but different zones are programmed to run on different days to not draw down the well too much and so the pump isn't constantly cycling to run all the zones.
A CSV valve does sound like a good idea, just not sure of the bang for the buck is there in my situation. My next reply details my main concern right now.CSV location.jpgtank valves closeup.jpg
 
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When I replaced the water filter, there was obvious sediment in the incoming water. The photos show the filter I installed and what it looks like 12 hours later. I said in an earlier post I had used black filters in the past which made it difficult to how much sediment was in the water in the clear housing. I don't know if this is worse than usual but based on how soon I had to change the previous filter (one or two weeks) I think so. Also, before I changed the filter, I ran the water without a filter, turned on taps, test flushed a toilet. There was visible sediment in the toilet bowl after it finished filling.
If I closed the ball valve on the house water line and opened the valve at the bottom of the tank to let the water run with the pump on, would that help flush any sediment from the bottom of the tank or would it make things worse because of pump cycling?
suggestions?
Thanks
 
Sorry. Didn't mean to go off. I just don't like being called a liar, con artist, and all the things that crazy guy says. I just have to keep reminding myself that people like that try to project who they are onto others. They are that way themselves, which is why they think other people are liars and con artist.

I digress. Your problem seems to be the sediment. A diaphragm style tank like that is completely empty when the pressure is lower than the air charge in the tank. Anytime you turn off the pump and open a faucet anywhere, the tank will be empty when the gauge drops to zero. It will also be empty if you use enough water to get the pressure below the pressure switch on setting. With 38 PSI air in the tank, the tank is completely empty when the water pressure gauge shows 37 PSI, no matter where the faucet(s) is/are.

Pumping out the well is the first thing I would try to clear up the sediment. It is best to cut it loose at the well head if possible, or use a large outside valve or hydrant. Using enough water to get the pressure low, like 20 PSI will increase the flow rate and pump more debris from the well. If the well is a good producer, it may need to run like this for hours or even days. If the well will pump dry, it needs to do so, be turned off and wait an hour, and let it pump the well dry again. This needs to be continued until the sediment clears up. It is always best to clean up the well if possible, before resorting to filters.

If the well does not fully clean up, a filter may still be needed. Black cartridges are usually carbon and not made for sediment. White cartridges are made for sediment, and come in different mesh or micron particle sizes. The smaller the particle you try to filter, the quicker it will clog up.

There are also ways a Cycle Stop Valve can reduce the sediment. Cycling a pump on and off also causes the well to be surged up and down, which can stir up sediment. If any of your zones are not matched to the pump and cause the pump to cycle on and off, just adding a CSV could help with the sediment.

If all of your zones ARE matched to the pump and do not cause cycling, decreasing the flow rate of the zones and therefore decreasing the velocity of water coming from the well can reduce sediment. At a certain low flow rate, the well is producing such slow velocity coming up the well pipe and/or casing that sediment will not go up with it. The water is flowing up the well so slowly that the sediment just settles to the bottom of the well. On top of that, at some low flow rate the velocity into the well is so slow the sediment doesn't even come into the well. But you need a Cycle Stop Valve to be able to reduce the zone sizes and use a low enough flow rate to stop the sediment, without cycling the pump on and off.
 
Gpag ........ I notice the picture of your system has an above ground check valve & looks just as mine did until I replaced it with a CSV1A.CSV1A.JPG
 
This is my CSV setup and the cartridge sediment filter I use. But, I also have a backwash filter prior to the sediment filter. The CSV has worked great for going on 4 years now. My sediment filter used to need replacement about every 2-3 months. Now, with my backwash filter doing the majority of the filtering, I replace the sediment filter once a year, and it still looks pretty clean at that interval. I am using a 25-micron cartridge in the sediment filter.

Cary, would a spin-down sediment filter maybe be appropriate for the OP's situation?
 

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