Code for hose bibbs

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edee_em

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I had a frost free hose bib in the garage fail and I need to replace it. I noticed the hose bib in the back yard isn't frost free and this got me thinking. Do I need to use a frost-free bib? I understand a non frost free bib requires a shutoff with a waste and that is what's on the back yard bib. If I repeat for the garage bib is that okay? PS: located in Ontario, Canada.
 

Geofd

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I have one of each myself.....shut off the water open the silcock and the water should drain out.....just to be safe use a small wet vac then you will know all the water is drained
 

Geofd

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I have one of each myself.....shut off the water open the silcock and the water should drain out.....just to be safe use a small wet vac then you will know all the water is drained
all of this is if you have valves isolating both silcocks
 

Diehard

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In general, I doubt there is a code requirement for non-freeze Hoes Bibs/Silcocks but I believe that they now require Vacuum Breakers on them.
They pretty much are all combination frost proof with vacuum breakers now-a-days.
Either type should be installed sloping out but is a requirement for the frost proof, since that is left on all winter.
And of course, it's no longer frost proof if you don't disconnect the hose from it.
 
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edee_em

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In general, I doubt there is a code requirement for non-freeze Hoes Bibs/Silcocks but I believe that they now require Vacuum Breakers on them.
They pretty much are all combination frost proof with vacuum breakers-a-days.
Either type should be installed sloping out but is a requirement for the frost proof, since that is left on all winter.
And of course, it's no longer frost proof if you don't disconnect the hose from it.
Thanks for the reply Diehard. Funny you should say they should be installed sloping out. When I took the old one out of my place, the original installer must have left his drill at home because instead of drilling another hole in the next joist (plumbing is running perpendicular to joists) he put in 2 90's to get the pipe below the next joist, a total drop of around 4-5". It certainly wasn't sloped to the outside! This does lead to a question: if we have a shutoff with a waste/drain, wouldn't it be better to have it slope back into the house towards the shutoff to drain more completely? Or is this a situation where the rule is for the people who don't turn off water in winters? Then again, what difference does the slope make when the pipe bursts from freezing?
 

Diehard

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Yes, when you don't have a freeze proof, it can be sloped either way. Difference being of course when sloped in, you must drain it using a stop & waste.
If sloped out, you can get by not draining from the stop & waste. It would drain out, since the silcock should be left open regardless of the slope direction.

Myself, I have frost proof but leave the hose connected by using a 2-way hose connector. I use one connection for the hose and the other is left open to allow the silcock to drain. I'm too lazy to disconnect and reconnect the hose every time I want to use it in the colder weather.
91xlhhYAIIL._AC_UL480_QL65_.jpg
 

frodo

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vacuum_bbbreaker.png
Thanks for the reply Diehard. Funny you should say they should be installed sloping out. When I took the old one out of my place, the original installer must have left his drill at home because instead of drilling another hole in the next joist (plumbing is running perpendicular to joists) he put in 2 90's to get the pipe below the next joist, a total drop of around 4-5". It certainly wasn't sloped to the outside! This does lead to a question: if we have a shutoff with a waste/drain, wouldn't it be better to have it slope back into the house towards the shutoff to drain more completely? Or is this a situation where the rule is for the people who don't turn off water in winters? Then again, what difference does the slope make when the pipe bursts from freezing?
Lets go over both the frost proof hose bib and the vacuum breaker
The frost proof hb must lean towards the outside,
inside the FPHB is a bib washer that is inside the heated space of your home
when the FPHB is turned off, the water needs to drain out of that pipe into the yard.
If, the FPHB is not leaning so it may drain, the water trapped inside will freeze and burst the pipe

That said
The vacuum breaker is a devilish little device that will cause your hose bib to freeze
see the drawing of the device.
The job of the VB is to provide an air break between the hb and the hose
in order to do this, it actually traps water inside your hose bib.when the spring closes off the water path to open an air pathfp_hb.png View attachment 20876

This does not pertain to combination FPHB vacuum breakers fixtures
They operate differently, and still need to be tilted to drain
 
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edee_em

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Thanks Frodo and Diehard. Very informative posts and leads me to lean towards replacement with a non frost free bib. Frodo, I didn't see any argument from you about sloping non frost free bib back into the house towards the shutoff. Thought?
 

frodo

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when you close the isolation valve in the crawl space, and open the drain
you also need to open the hose bib to allow a vent so the pipe will drain.

so,,it does not matter

why do you need to open the hb for a vent?
put a straw in a glass of water, put your finger over the end of the straw and pull the straw
out of the glass. no water runs out of the straw
take your finger off the straw, [vent] and your pants get wet
 

Diehard

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You sure make things confusing.
No question about which way a frost proof unit must slope.
Not sure why the talk about all that other stuff.

I hate to add to the confusion but...
The frost proof design and the vacuum break design have two independent functions.
The frost proof design simply self drains when SHUT OFF and requires that no hose be attached.
The vacuum breaker design is to prevent back siphonage, which of course can only happen when the hose bib is left OPEN and typically(but not necessarily) when there's a hose attached.
 

Diehard

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when you close the isolation valve in the crawl space, and open the drain
you also need to open the hose bib to allow a vent so the pipe will drain.

so,,it does not matter

why do you need to open the hb for a vent?
put a straw in a glass of water, put your finger over the end of the straw and pull the straw
out of the glass. no water runs out of the straw
take your finger off the straw, [vent] and your pants get wet
Yeah...try that with a 1/2" pipe on the horizontal. ;)
 

frodo

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You sure make things confusing.
No question about which way a frost proof unit must slope.
Not sure why the talk about all that other stuff.

I hate to add to the confusion but...
The frost proof design and the vacuum break design have two independent functions.
The frost proof design simply self drains when SHUT OFF and requires that no hose be attached.
My post is referring to FBHB without built in vacuum breakers, READ the last sentience of the post
The vacuum breaker design is to prevent back siphonage, [ syphonage] which of course can only happen when the hose bib is left OPEN and typically(but not necessarily) when there's a hose attached.
YES, That is the function of a vacuum breaker, Thank you for confirming that.
We are discussing frozen pipes
The point you are missing is when the HB is turned OFF, The diaphragm inside the VB
TRAPS water inside the HB as it opens to air break the hose
SO, what does that mean?
If the VB traps water inside the HB the HB can freeze

There are 2 different types of FPHB
one has a VB the other does not,,,My post was discussing the FBHB that does not have a vacuum breaker.
the 2nd part of my post is discussing a simple screw on VB

sill_cock1.png
 
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Diehard

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Doesn't the typical screw on vacuum breaker have a little thing that is suppose to be pressed for that reason?
611918009032.jpg

Oh yeah, FYI.. siphonage can be spelled either way. with an "i" or a "y". But thanks. I'll do the same for you some time.:D
 

frodo

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Doesn't the typical screw on vacuum breaker have a little thing that is suppose to be pressed for that reason?
View attachment 20893

Oh yeah, FYI.. siphonage can be spelled either way. with an "i" or a "y". But thanks. I'll do the same for you some time.:D

You mean that little screw that is never pushed by anyone?
or
The little screw that 99.9999% of the population has no idea what it is
 

Diehard

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Yeah and by the same people that are suppose to know enough to open faucet to drain out to prevent freezing.
They should do away with that design to begin with. But that's another subject.
 
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