Beat the drought! How to filter and pump a seeping spring

[medwar]

The drought is upon us here in the west, and I'm finally getting around to tapping a seeping (~ 1 gpm) spring in a seasonal creek on our property. Goal is to pump the water about 30 ft. vertically, and 80 ft. linearly to a ~500 gallon holding tank. Its unclear what our rights are to the water, so I'm trying to avoid building a spring box or anything even semi-permanent in the creek. I can get 120 ac power to the area easily, and would like to set the system up to come on automatically during off-peak energy hours and shutoff automatically when the tank is full. I realize this is a very involved question/ design, but any guidance/ designs/ equipment suggestions you can provide is hugely appreciated. Thank you thank you.

Some specific questions/ details:

- Is 1 gpm enough flow from the spring for even the smallest sized pumps?

- The water is very silty in the creek. I filled a 32 oz jar and it took about 5 days for it to settle to clear. Is a shallow-well pump with a filter a good idea here?

- What would be the best setup for auto timer/ shutoff based on tank level?

Thank you thank you thank you.

 

[Valveman]

Could have swore I answered this already? Anyway, the silt will make it hard for a shallow well jet pump to stay primed as the silt will mess up the check or foot valve. You can use a 1/2HP, 10 GPM submersible well pump with a 1 GPM Dole valve if the creek is deep and wide enough?

 

[medwar]

Valveman - thank you very much, and apologies if there is another similar thread on this I couldn't find.

I have been able to dig out the creek to fill a 12" deep x 2' dia. pool, and could definitely go deeper if needed. Looks like those 10 GPM pumps are about 2' long. Does the whole thing need to be submerged?

I really appreciate the help.

 

[medwar]

Update - I dug a good size pool, and after a couple days the water is crystal clear. The bottom has a lot of sediment but I think my filtering requirements might be a little easier than originally thought.

 

[Valveman]

You can lay the submersible down on its side and it only takes a foot or so of submergence. You will need a cooling shroud or flow inducer like in the picture to keep the motor cool, and you will need to keep it up out of the muck.

 

[medwar]

Awesome - thank you very much Valveman - I really appreciate the wisdom here.

 

[RS]

If the spring only provides 1 gpm why are you considering using a 10 gpm pump? Maybe I missed something, but I would buy the smallest available shallow well pump and restrict the output down to 1 gpm, the slower you pump out the water the less silt you should have.

 

[Valveman]

A 1/2HP, 10 GPM pump is the smallest you can get. The 10 GPM series will not build as much pressure as the 5 or 7 GPM series, which makes it easier to restrict the output to 1 GPM.

 

[RS]

I was told once by a pump expert never to lay down a submergible pump, even in storage. when I have seen them in stores they are stood vertically in a rack. The reason being the shaft is unsupported in the impeller area, and it will sag, I wouldn't try to run one in the horizontal position.

 

[Valveman]

Been running pumps from 1/2HP to 75HP laying on there sides for 50 years. A submersible pump has a bushing/bearing on top and bottom of every stage (multiple bearings centering the shaft) except the very bottom one. The motor also has a top bushing. People saying to not lay a pump down is more about upthrust on start up than anything else. Even then it is the back pressure that keeps pumps from upthrusting, not the position of the pump/motor. When the only check valve in the system is installed at the pump, and the pump starts against pressure, laying on there side doesn't hurt a thing. With the pipe full of water and starting the pump with a 40/60 pressure switch, there will be 40 PSI or 92' of head on the pump at start up. This is exactly the same as if the pump was standing vertical with 92' of water in the pipe above it. Even without a pressure switch, the restriction from a 1 GPM Dole valve will keep the pump from upthrusting on start up.

 

[medwar]

@RS - thanks for the input. I appreciate it. I guess I'll wait on a third opinion tie-breaker now!

 

[Valveman]

Wait for a forth, fifth, or a dozen others and you will get as many different opinions. But that is just what they are, "opinions". Opinions about pumps are like butt holes, everybody has one. Most are wrong because pumps are counter intuitive. Sorry. Makes my job a lot harder. I started helping on the Internet because the "opinions" I was reading were just crazy. I don't give opinions. I wouldn't be telling you a pump can be laid on its side if I hadn't done that successfully about a zillion times in the last 52 years.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Many things work that are not optimal.

If you broke the pump down and took measurements you might could find uneven wear by running the pump on its side.

That said, I’d still run it on its side if I wanted. The wear may be negligible in the big picture.

 

[Valveman]

If you broke the pump down and took measurements you might could find uneven wear by running the pump on its side.

Nope! I have taken many apart and checked. There are multiple radial bearings in a submersible pump and the weight of the impeller and shaft stack don't add up to much. So, these bearings do not wear on the bottom side. Plus, when spinning the impeller stack acts like a gyro. The centrifugal force is at 360 degrees. Gravity has very little to do with it. The main reason people want the pump at a 45 degree angle or standing up, is to keep the weight of the impeller stack and motor rotor in the downward position. However, back pressure, not gravity is what pushes down on the impeller stack and prevents upthrust. Without enough back pressure an impeller stack will upthrust even when standing vertically. With enough back pressure the impeller stack will not upthrust, even if the pump was mounted upside down. This means starting the pump against pressure is more important than mounting the pump is a vertical position.

 

[Twowaxhack]

Nope! I have taken many apart and checked. There are multiple radial bearings in a submersible pump and the weight of the impeller and shaft stack don't add up to much. So, these bearings do not wear on the bottom side. Plus, when spinning the impeller stack acts like a gyro. The centrifugal force is at 360 degrees. Gravity has very little to do with it. The main reason people want the pump at a 45 degree angle or standing up, is to keep the weight of the impeller stack and motor rotor in the downward position. However, back pressure, not gravity is what pushes down on the impeller stack and prevents upthrust. Without enough back pressure an impeller stack will upthrust even when standing vertically. With enough back pressure the impeller stack will not upthrust, even if the pump was mounted upside down. This means starting the pump against pressure is more important than mounting the pump is a vertical position.

How did you check ? Looking with your eyes isn’t good enough. You would have to do lab tests on it. Before and after tests.

 

[Valveman]

I have calipers that work to a thousandth of an inch and know how to use them. But yes you can see this when/if it happens to the bearings in a pump. When a single impeller pump runs at a set low flow rate for long periods of time, it will wear the bearing/bushing on one side, and it is obvious. Single impeller pumps only have a bushing on one side of the impeller. This lets the shaft deflect and can wear a bushing on one side. Even so, most single impeller end suction centrifugal pumps are installed horizontally????? Why would that be OK and not a submersible?

Multi-stage pumps like submersible pumps have multiple bearings, one on each side of the impeller. This prevents the shaft from deflecting to one side, and the bushings wear evenly, even when the pump is laying horizontally. Again, it is not radial deflection which causes some people not to like laying pumps on there sides, but rather to prevent upthrust. Again, upthrust is prevented by starting pumps against pressure, not by installing them in a vertical position. Not laying submersibles on there sides is just another one of those "opinions" that nobody checked. But I did!

 

[medwar]

Wait for a forth, fifth, or a dozen others and you will get as many different opinions. But that is just what they are, "opinions". Opinions about pumps are like butt holes, everybody has one. Most are wrong because pumps are counter intuitive. Sorry. Makes my job a lot harder. I started helping on the Internet because the "opinions" I was reading were just crazy. I don't give opinions. I wouldn't be telling you a pump can be laid on its side if I hadn't done that successfully about a zillion times in the last 52 years.

Thank you valveman. I appreciate the input and wisdom you bring here.

 

[medwar]

Many things work that are not optimal.

If you broke the pump down and took measurements you might could find uneven wear by running the pump on its side.

That said, I’d still run it on its side if I wanted. The wear may be negligible in the big picture.

Thank you!