Bathroom/Laundry remodel: Assistance requested

Discussion in 'General Plumbing Help' started by Zanne, Jun 23, 2013.

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  1. Apr 14, 2014 #41

    Zanne

    Zanne

    Zanne

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    After looking at the measurements some more I realized that I could probably cram a 30"x60" tub against the wall. That would ultimately increase the value of the home and would negate the need to tank the entire room. I think it would be cheaper to do that than to try to waterproof the whole room and hope that the contractor got it right. The tub install would be simpler.
    I am wondering about a building code rule I saw on a website
    [​IMG]
    from http://starcraftcustombuilders.com/bath.design.rules.htm

    None of the bathrooms in my house or in my friend's houses have that much space between the tub and the toilet.
    Does it really matter if the toilet is closer so long as it is at least 15" from the center and there is still 24" of clear space on one side of the tub so that someone can get in and out on the south part of the room? I would want to have more than 15" but am not sure if I could get a full 24".

    I'm trying to find the IBC code on this but am not sure where I can find it. Louisiana follows IBC apparently.
     
  2. May 26, 2014 #42

    Zanne

    Zanne

    Zanne

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    I've still been thinking about this and I drew some more sketches and isometric drawings.
    Here is a rough sketch of the existing layout (or what I think the layout is-- I have not been able to squeeze under the house in that location -- I might have to dig a hole to be able to get enough clearance to get under the house there).
    [​IMG]

    Here is another one that assumes that the washing machine is tied in (although it might not be-- if it is, I don't know if it ties in before or after the shower).
    [​IMG]

    Then we move on to my revised Plan A (I'm calling it that because I'm junking previous plans and starting anew)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I didn't update the text in the more detailed drawings. Ignore the green lines-- I forgot to erase them; I was trying to get an idea of whether or not there was enough space.

    Then Plan B
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    An alternative that someone suggested would be to put the toilet next to the lavatory on the south wall, but then it would move the toilet farther away from the vent stack -- which would then make both lavatory and toilet more than 5' away from the existing main vent stack .

    In Plan A, the washing machine ties in close to the existing stand pipe (it will be moved over since the floor will be pulled up). I probably could route it to have the waste pipe connection hook in to the soil pipe before the toilet rather than after. I'm still confused about the rules and on what order is allowed though.
    [​IMG]

    In Plan B, the washing machine would drain in or near the drain pipe for the old lavatory. (It probably needs a larger size drain pipe).

    My inspiration for now is this picture of how the shower/tub surround would look (only I would want corner shelves)
    [​IMG]

    So, Are any of these plans feasible? If so, how many cleanouts would I need and where would they need to be? Would the horizontal connections to the main soil pipe need a wye to connect? Would sanitary T's be ok for connecting the vertical parts of the vent? Or should I go with wyes? (I want to get a shopping list).

    If these plans are not feasible, what is wrong and why? What can be done to make them feasible?

    Thanks for "listening" to my blathering.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
  3. Jun 8, 2014 #43

    Zanne

    Zanne

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    So, I tried to snap a few photos from the east side of the house (facing west) and my friend took a video from the southeast corner (facing north and then panning west and slightly south).

    I'm no plumber, but I'm pretty sure it shouldn't look like this:

    East side view:
    [​IMG]
    I think this is where the main vent stack is. I'm not sure.
    [​IMG]

    (view from east facing west)
    [​IMG]

    (moving more northward? I think)
    [​IMG]
    I'm not certain but I'm fairly sure the zig-zagging pipe is just a sleeve for some wiring.

    This is an external shot of where my friend crammed his camera in to a hole to get video:
    [​IMG]

    Taken from the cellphone video, this shows the view from the south facing north.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I really have no clue what most of that stuff is but I'm guessing there are probably some violations there. It looks like a jumbled mess to me and the incline is probably all wrong. The soil pipe was actually sitting on the ground. Not sure if that was clear in the image.

    On a scale of 1 to 10-- 1 being best and 10 being worst, how bad is this?
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
  4. Jun 8, 2014 #44

    phishfood

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    I really can't tell much from the pictures. One obvious code violation that I can see is the PVC drain pipe glues into an ABS fitting in the second photo, but that isn't a major issue if the correct glue was used. Also, is that the laundry drain in the 3rd and 4th picture? I can't exactly tell what that fitting is in 3rd picture, but zoomed in it almost looks like a pressure tee. The water pipe is messy, and isn't supposed to be PVC.
     
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  5. Jun 8, 2014 #45

    Zanne

    Zanne

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    Its hard to get in there without digging out first. I'll have to look and see if I can get a better view of where things go.

    I *think* the first picture is the soil pipe from the toilet coming down in to a T and then the pipe off to the left leads to the main vent pipe.

    I'm guessing the fitting in pic 2 should probably be a sanitary tee. Now that I'm looking at it and the incline. I think that the pipe going north and inclined up is the vent pipe and that it just terminates under the house. It is likely for the washing machine. Actually... That might be the shower. My late plumber mentioned something about things not being hooked up. He told me that the tenants *really* effed up the plumbing on the house. He was going to re-do it all but he wasn't able to when his health declined. I'm not seeing a P-trap for whatever that fixture is. Oh wait, when I tilted my monitor I could see that the northbound pipe merges with an ABS fitting and then goes up in to the house. I see a water supply line nearby so that is probably the old lavatory drain. So, it looks like the lavatory and shower were tied together but I don't know if/where they vent.

    I need to get a better look at what is going on with the pipe that comes up just west of the toilet pipe vent and wraps around to the east. Maybe it attaches in from the side. It's a rather strange setup.

    Maybe the pipe coming straight down next to the empty milk jug is the washing machine one... I'm having a hard time figuring out the layout above. I'm thinking maybe that is too far over though... gah.. I really need to figure out how to get some measurements to line things up and to work out where water supply lines are vs lines just carrying wires or cables. I know I had to crawl around under there running some phone lines from one end of the house to the other, and had to run some ethernet cables as well. (I was nominated for that job since I was the only one at the time slim enough to fit).

    I know the water supply lines should be CPVC or copper or something other than PVC. I also know that they should be above the waste lines and never below. And they are supposed to be at least 12 inches away from waste lines so that there is no chance of contamination (at least that's what I was reading in the Louisiana plumbing code).

    I see what you mean about the ABS hooking to the PVC. It happens in more than one place as near as I can tell. I don't know why. I don't know if that was part of the original plumbing or if the tenants did that crap when they messed up the plumbing.

    I think I see the drain for the old laundry sink in the last picture, but I don't know why it would run toward the east unless it just terminated in to the ground or something....

    I remember when we first moved here, there was some large barrel of grease buried in the ground and the kitchen sink emptied in to it.

    I also remember when I was a child, my father was showing me the different pipes (pvc and cpvc). He said the white one was for cold water and the yellowish one was for hot water. The more I'm learning the more I realize my father didn't know as much about plumbing as I'd thought. LOL. I'm sure if we'd had the internet back then and he'd been able to just look up plumbing codes that he would have known that pvc couldn't be used for potable water supply lines above ground.

    Thanks for the reply. I will have to make a note to gut the ABS stuff and replace it with PVC so that everything will mesh properly-- and make sure that I can get cpvc for the water supplies. I'm just not sure if I can tie in pvc to cpvc. I've seen fittings for sale on homedepot website, but I don't know if they can withstand the pressure properly or what adhesive to use.

    I've been told by a friend that the other plumber in town (the one I've never met) doesn't actually do the labor himself and he refuses to dig (apparently he doesn't like messing with sewage). What he did when a friend hired him was sit there and tell my friend exactly what to do and then charged him for it. Not sure how much he charged though since my friend was doing work for his uncle and the uncle footed the bill. I'm thinking of working out a similar deal if that is allowed.

    Edit: I realized that the picture of the location of the exterior part on the east side was not accurate. Its a bit more north than in the original picture. The hole is for the dryer vent. For some reason the cover would not stay on after we had the siding done.
    [​IMG]

    I used the flattened mountain Dew box to lean on so I wouldn't get as much dirt on my pants. So these photos were taken to the right of the support thingy (not sure exactly what it is called). The water line is for the toilet water supply.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2014
  6. Jun 11, 2014 #46

    Zanne

    Zanne

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    Revised sketch of what I could see of the DWV system. I did not include some of the mystery pipes that I could not identify. I also did not include the water supply lines since I couldn't tell for sure what was water and what was something with wiring or whether it was hot water or cold water or wtf was going on.
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Nov 15, 2014 #47

    Zanne

    Zanne

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    I posted about this on the houserepair page and in another thread here, but I have a revised plan (that probably still needs more revision).

    I've decided that a lot of the stuff just needs to be gutted. I will keep the existing main vent and hook the shower/tub to that. Currently the shower doesn't even have a trap and it vents to the lavatory but the lavatory doesn't have a vent. It just drains directly to the shower line.

    Here is the current idea (I didn't draw in the vents for the toilet and lavatory, but I plan to have them inside the southern exterior wall).
    [​IMG]

    Here is just one idea for the plumbing:
    [​IMG]

    I have different variations in mind and all of them pretty much have the same layout for the vent, but different ideas for the soil/waste pipes.

    My thoughts/options
    a) as in the current drawing, have the lavatory waste line travel northeast to connect to the toilet soil line and then they both merge to the main soil pipe with either a wye and 1/8 bend or combo tee wye.
    b) have the toilet waste line travel northwest to merge with the lavatory waste line and then both connect to the main soil pipe
    c) have lavatory an toilet lines travel north independently of one another and separately connect to the main soil pipe.

    I'm leaning toward A, but I'm open to suggestions. I'm also open to suggestions for changes in the types of fittings. I would really have to do some sort of dry fit to see how things would connect up. I might hit the hardware store and play around with stuff. I'm planning to get some painter's tape and mark spots on the wall to get a general idea of how long some of the pipes will have to be.

    The reason I don't like C as much is because it would require more joints in the main soil pipe and require more 3" pvc. I'd have to mess with getting the angles and such. I think A is simpler. I don't know if B is a good idea since most diagrams I've seen have the pipe traveling from the toilet with the lavatory tying in.

    Also, I'm trying to figure out some things about the building code in terms of placement of the vanity. The plumbing codes said it needs to be 15" from center to wall on the side but I found a bathroom planning guide online that says a freestanding or wall-hung lavatory needs to be 4" from the side wall according to (IRC R 307.2) The minimum distance between a wall and the edge of a free standing or wall-hung lavatory is 4".

    I'm trying to figure out if that code applies in Louisiana and in this situation.

    I also might need to bump the lavatory forward a bit to make sure there is room for the trap. I could put a little shelf behind the vanity to keep stuff from falling behind. If I end up doing the 4" from the wall I will probably add a small side shelf that is high enough to not interfere with cleaning.

    I'm curious as to whether a Euro-style lavatory placed in a vanity like that qualifies as a freestanding lavatory. If the 4" rule does not apply then the vanity will have to be 2" from the wall.

    I also need to figure out the best positioning for the washing machine standpipe.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2014
  8. Nov 15, 2014 #48

    frodo

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    I did not take they time to read 5 pages, I saw a drawing and noticed a problem, others may differ

    your washing machine is draining to close to your bathroom. you need what is refereed to as "suds relief"

    if you would back the washing drain fitting up down the line, you want it to be no closer to another fixture than 5'
    you will not get suds bubbleing up in your toilet or shower

    tumblr_n66o5efu4s1qkwd9ao1_400.jpg
     
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  9. Nov 16, 2014 #49

    Zanne

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    Thanks, Frodo. I wasn't aware of the 5' rule for the "suds relief". I have since changed the plans up quite a bit. I'll have to do a sketch to show the changes.

    If I move the toilet to the opposite wall and have a long soil pipe with a wye that connects to the main soil pipe, does it still have to be far from the washing machine?
    Like
    [​IMG]

    or
    [​IMG]

    Oh, and here is one more layout sketch. I need to figure out the best way to vent the standpipe in this position though (this diagram shows the water supply and standpipe near the existing plumbing for the old lavatory)
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Nov 16, 2014 #50

    frodo

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    how deep is the main sewer from the floor? what kind of room do you have

    where is the main sewer in relationship to the drawing?

    10636062_10152564894290168_6975341148229226197_n.jpg
     
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  11. Nov 16, 2014 #51

    Zanne

    Zanne

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    Oops. Sorry, I forgot to mention that. The room is shown oriented with the top to the north.
    The main sewer line runs from east to west. It is probably about 12" to 14" north of the "plumbing vent" (just above the bathtub). Its directly under the old toilet. The toilet drops down to a tee and a bend underneath. The bend faces west. The side of the tee faces south and goes to a fernco fitting (sans straps) and merges with the vent.
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    The sewer line runs parallel to the north wall of the bathroom (which is the south wall of the laundry room). Its partially buried in the ground so I can't really see it all. It might have a slight angle toward the south-- but very slight.

    Here is the existing layout (the wall-mounted lavatory fell off years ago so its just open pipe)
    [​IMG]

    And here's a quick alteration to show the pipe locations. I'm not sure what fittings attach the washer and tub to the pipe. The drain for the lavatory is the vent pipe for the shower (there is no P-trap). I'm assuming that the washing machine line goes to the main soil pipe somehow-- its entirely possible that it just dumps directly under the house, but I've never checked while doing laundry. It doesn't have a trap either.
    [​IMG]
    I just realized I should have had a V8 and that when I did the other line drawings for the pluming, I forgot that I moved the washing machine to the east wall. LOL. So it will be farther away.

    In terms of access space, its all under the house. The ground varies in height, but if need be, I could probably dig to make more space while work is being done. The subfloor above is going to be removed and replaced, so the plan is to get some of the work done while the floor is removed. So when the job is done, someone can sit on the joists or just stand on the ground between the joists.

    I hope I'm making sense... Let me know if you need more clarification.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2014
  12. Nov 16, 2014 #52

    frodo

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    this is how i'd do it, there has to be 35 different ways,
    i propose, use a 3" double wye with a clean out on the end
    and a 3x2 bushing for the sink
    3" to . the >>>layout the shower drain, and toilet drain. place the vent in the center between theses 2.
    using a 3 san tee with a 2" side outlet. buy putting in the center..it will line up on the shower and toilet when installed

    3x2 bushing in the top of the 3"tee vent out the roof

    the washer, catch it off the main line as shown, you will have no problems with suds
    is this clear as mud?

    10407396_10152149524855168_4179452674452249905_n.jpg

    scan0001.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2014
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  13. Nov 17, 2014 #53

    phishfood

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    The yellowses, it hurts my eyeses!
    It burnses, it burnses!!
    Ooooohhh, not the yellowses againses!!
     
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  14. Nov 17, 2014 #54

    Matt30

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    It's kinda growing in me
     
  15. Nov 17, 2014 #55

    havasu

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    I say we all chip in two cents apiece and get him some white, non-ruled paper!
     
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  16. Nov 17, 2014 #56

    Matt30

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    Well we don't have pennies up here anymore. Guess I'll have to use my last nickel
     
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  17. Nov 17, 2014 #57

    frodo

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    damn!!!!!!!!! ok ok,, I buy some damn white paper!!!!!!!!
     
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  18. Nov 17, 2014 #58

    Zanne

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    LOL!

    Thanks, Frodo. I would do that if I were going to keep the existing layout-- although as it is, the toilet can't be used because its in a 23" wide alcove and I'm the only one on the household who can actually squeeze in to sit on it, but I don't have elbow room.

    The idea is to tear down the entire west wall of the bathroom as well as part of the north wall (only leaving a small chunk that has a light switch for the exterior light). I know that neither of them are load-bearing.

    I would then swap the laundry room with the bathroom. The hallway already has a doorway framed out somewhat so I will use that spot for a door to enter the new bathroom. The shower is getting ditched- it is too small for Doofusaurus and the bathroom will be for him (as well as for guests).

    I want to keep the existing vent pipe since it goes out through the roof and I don't really want to mess with trying to move it.

    I plan to move the washer and dryer to the east wall in a northern part.

    Here is the most recent sketch I did that shows the proposed changes. I cut off the part that showed the exterior door and passage to the kitchen to conserve space in the drawing.
    [​IMG]

    I know there are a lot of changes, but currently, neither of the spaces are working as-is. Shower is too small, toilet alcove is not to code, and the laundry room is too small. People constantly bump into the walls when trying to carry laundry in and out.

    I wonder if I will be able to get a discount on supplies if I get a job at that hardware store. LOL.

    And ROTFL on the yellow and the Sméagol impression.

    I remember back when I was new to the internet and they had the early live chats. Someone used a font color that I deemed "retina burn green".

    I'm half asleep so I hope I'm making sense.
     
  19. Nov 17, 2014 #59

    frodo

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    here is another drawing

    scan0005.jpg
     
  20. Nov 17, 2014 #60

    Zanne

    Zanne

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    Thanks, Frodo. I have a similar sketch to that somewhere, but I forgot to show the connection for the tub and washing machine. Is the washing machine being wet-vented there? I'm guessing if I use 2" pipe that I will be limited to a max of 6' to meet my state's code for distance from the vent. However, if I bump it up to 3", I will be able to have it 10' away. I'm going to have to change where the drain is anyway since the current one for the lavatory goes directly to the shower drain instead.

    If we were to move the position of the main vent stack, we would have to make it go horizontal in the attic to meet up with the part that goes out through the roof. I admit I'm wary of going in to the attic, even though I know it is necessary. Nobody has gone into the attic in years. I have never actually gone in to the attic myself before. I tried, but my ladder wasn't tall enough to reach. LOL.

    Here are a few sketches I threw together.

    Plan A (the vent goes through attic and waste line meets up with soil line in between bath and toilet line)
    [​IMG]

    Plan B (washer waste line meets main vent with a tee and is above bath line that also meets with a tee). I'm guessing this violates the within 5' rule for suds relief and may cause some siphonage?
    [​IMG]

    Plan C (washer meets main vent with tee below where bath ties in) Probably has same issues as B.
    [​IMG]

    Plan D (washer ties in a little downstream of the bath, but farther upstream of the toilet)
    [​IMG]

    I'm hoping to find the most economical and efficient system that still works with at least some of the existing line. I want to preserve what works (or is too difficult/pricey to move).

    Note: in the sketches, I would have the washing machine drain expand to 3" below the floor.

    What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014

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