American Standard Lowboy (one piece)

[boytonstu]

I came across an American Standard Lowboy and before I install it I have a few questions.

I have read many negatives about lowboys in general.

OTOH a GC told me that he retrofitted an American Standard Lowboy with a Fluidmaster and it works fine.

Are lowboys OK or are they headaches to be avoided?

Are Kohler and American Standard lowboys equal?

And BTW

I have seen the no flush valve Glacier Bay (Niagara) toilet at Home Depot.

It has a hinged 1.6 gallon bucket that flips to flush.

However it just comes in a round bowl. Your thoughts.

 

[Mr_David]

Not familair with Glacier Bay toilets. All low boy toilets are the worst to repair.
These are still concidered gravity flush toilets. The low tank does not provide much gravity for a good flush. They are how ever much quiter than a combo Toilet. I hate fixing them because they usually have high % of having a call back on the repair which means a free trip back to try and fix it again. I carry a lot of parts on my truck but when it comes to low boys I end up having to special order parts

 

[boytonstu]

Not familair with Glacier Bay toilets. All low boy toilets are the worst to repair.
These are still concidered gravity flush toilets. The low tank does not provide much gravity for a good flush. They are how ever much quiter than a combo Toilet. I hate fixing them because they usually have high % of having a call back on the repair which means a free trip back to try and fix it again. I carry a lot of parts on my truck but when it comes to low boys I end up having to special order parts

This is the Home Depot Glacier Bay no flap toilet.

Imagine: No flapper!

Review from a HD customer who is a licensed plumber:

"I stumbled upon this toilet and purchased it because of the flush power height and price. When I opened it up to install it I was extremely surprised to see a new revolutionary design that I as a licensed plumber and contractor feel is far Superior to any thing else on the market. The customer I first installed this for coined it a dump bucket toilet as water is contained it a bucket like contained on a axis. With this design there is no flapper valve and flush power is greatly increased by gravity. Since flapper valves are the weakest point of almost every and almost all leak or will leak at some point this design is far superior to any thing else on the market at a price point no one can argue with. Since I installed that first toilet over a year ago I've recommended this this product to all my customers. I have put in to many to count with out a single complaint. I will say that it is a good idea to use RTV or some kind of silicone on the gasket since I have done that on all that I have installed as it will guarantee a water tight system with a chemical seal as opposed strictly mechanical. Also as a side note you may need a thicker seal then the one included depending on your flange not a big deal just pick one up for a few bucks. Most toilets don't come with a seal any way so its a great value. Also I have had customers who have had abdominal surgery and had a hard time getting off toilets because the were so low. Those customers are very impressed with this toilet stating that it solve all there problems."

The review above is not mine.


2-Piece Round Front 1.6 GPF All-In-One Toilet - White-303-635 at The Home Depot

This is a top view of the dump tank. There is a pivot on both sides and you can move the flush handle to either side.

I may try it but I wish that it was an oval instead of round.

 

[johnjh2o]

I have also installed on of these things that the owner supplied, but I was not impressed. Scene then I have heard of many problems with them on plumbing forums such as this one. There have been handle problems along with fill valve problems, not to mention the noise from the water dumping into the tank. Go back to Home Depot and ask them if they stock any repair parts for that thing. I can tell you they don't. To top it off they don't flush. You get what you pay for.

John

 

[boytonstu]

I have also installed on of these things that the owner supplied, but I was not impressed. Scene then I have heard of many problems with them on plumbing forums such as this one. There have been handle problems along with fill valve problems, not to mention the noise from the water dumping into the tank. Go back to Home Depot and ask them if they stock any repair parts for that thing. I can tell you they don't. To top it off they don't flush. You get what you pay for.

John

John,

Thanks, interesting information.

When did you install the unit?

Did you replace it or is it still operational?

Their MISO rating is 725.

The parts are inexpensive directly from Niagara. Fill valve $15, trough $5

HD Claims that they wiil have them in 5 months.

 

[johnjh2o]

It has been at least two years since I install that particular toilet. I was supplied by the customer. I can't say whether or not if it's still working. What I can say is the flush wasn't very good. As far a HD having parts for it in 5 months I wouldn't hold my breath. The toilet I installed two years ago came from there and the way I look at it they will have taken 2 years and 5 months to stock parts for it. It's the same old story with HD they buy what the wholesalers have good prices on for that month, the next month they won't sale the item any more let alone stock repair parts for it. If your looking for tried and true products stick with the name brands.

John

 

[boytonstu]

It has been at least two years since I install that particular toilet. I was supplied by the customer. I can't say whether or not if it's still working. What I can say is the flush wasn't very good. As far a HD having parts for it in 5 months I wouldn't hold my breath. The toilet I installed two years ago came from there and the way I look at it they will have taken 2 years and 5 months to stock parts for it. It's the same old story with HD they buy what the wholesalers have good prices on for that month, the next month they won't sale the item any more let alone stock repair parts for it. If your looking for tried and true products stick with the name brands.

John

Let me see if I understand you.

You installed a no flapper toilet 2 years ago and as far as you know it is still working.

No servicing or parts were needed during this time.

The customer is satisfied.

You say that it didn't flush 'very good'.

Please describe the flush.

Your description is at variance with the reviewer. Quality control?

Is there something basically wrong with the no flapper design?

 

[johnjh2o]

I've done my best to give you a honest opinion of the toilet. But it seams that you had all ready made up your mind. So at this point go to HD put down your money and install it. Then come back here and give us the same honest opinion I gave you.

Good Luck John

 

[boytonstu]

I've done my best to give you a honest opinion of the toilet. But it seams that you had all ready made up your mind. So at this point go to HD put down your money and install it. Then come back here and give us the same honest opinion I gave you.

Good Luck John

I've done my best to give you a honest opinion of the toilet.

I have no disagreement here.

Please describe the flush.

Is the customer still happy?

I see 2 different professional opinions.

My mind is not made up.

I need some more data.

Is you opinion based solely on one installation?

What is your favorite toilet?

 

[johnjh2o]

No it's based on my 50 years as a plumbing contractor. What is your opinion based on talking to a sales person at HD who claims to be a licensed plumber?

John

 

[boytonstu]

You are not reading what I wrote.

"My mind is not made up." I have NO opinion.

"Review from a HD customer who is a licensed plumber:"

This was not what I HEARD from a salesman.

The review may be phony, I don't know for sure, but it was not from a conversation with a salesman from HD.

John, how many of these "dump" toilets have you installed and/or serviced in 50 years?

In 50 years of professional experience which toilet have you found to be the most reliable?

The flaperless design has been produced for approximately 10 years.

http://www.niagaraflapperless.ca/pdfs/water_matrix.pdf

Read the press release announcing Niagara Flapperless' unique partnership with Homestead Land Holdings, one of Ontario's largest rental property companies.

Homestead Land Holdings has over 22,000 residential apartments spread across the cities of Brantford, Burlington, Guelph, Hamilton, Kingston, London, Oakville, Ottawa, Sarnia, Toronto and Naples, Florida. We have apartments to suit all lifestyles with amenities ranging from indoor/outdoor swimming pools, to fitness rooms, saunas and more.

--------------------------------------------------------
The Water Conservation Company has completed many successful retrofit projects with the Niagara Flapperless toilet.

Introduction

YCC # 455, The Concordia, is located at 25 Sunrise Avenue. The condominium is a 16 floor multi unit residential building with 202 suites. Each suite contains two washrooms. The current yearly water consumption for the building is 96,725 m3 per year. The current yearly water consumption pattern produces a daily water consumption pattern of 265.66 m3 and a per suite daily water consumption of 1.31 m3. The current water consumption can be considered high for a multi unit residential condominium property.
Given the current high water cost the Board of Directors and the Property Manager procured (WCC) Water Conservation Company Limited, a local water conservation company, to recommend measures that will provide the condominium with a substantial reduction in the current water cost. WCC reviewed the current water consumption data and reviewed the fixtures that consume water in a few sample suites. From the review of the water consumption data and the suite survey, WCC prepared a detailed water conservation plan for the condominium. The water conservation plan included the replacement of the existing older 20.0 litre per flush American Standard toilets with new 6.0 litre per flush Niagara Flapperless toilets and the supply and installation of new water and energy saving shower heads and faucet aerators.
The supply and installation of the new toilet fixtures includes the City of Toronto toilet rebate program. The City of Toronto toilet rebate program enables the condominium to take advantage of the $60.00 cash rebate paid directly to the Condominium Corporation for every new toilet supplied and installed in the condominium
Product Selection
WCC provided the Board of Directors with an overview of water saving materials in a Board presentation. The Board presentation included the benefits and features of the City of Toronto approved water saving toilets for the City of Toronto toilet rebate program. The presentation includes a review of MAP toilet testing. WCC water saving approach is to only install proven water saving fixtures that will not create any lifestyle changes for the residents. The Board members worked with WCC to select the Niagara Flapperless toilets, Niagara shower heads and quality water and energy saving faucet aerators. Sample fixtures were installed for the Boards review and approval.
Program Approval
For the water saving fit up program to be a success the new fixtures must be installed in a large number of individual suites in order to dramatically impact the current high cost of water at the condominium. WCC water saving fit up programs for condominiums includes an individual sign up program for the individual residents of the suites in the condominium. The individual sign up program is necessary as the Condominium Corporation is responsible for the bulk metered water cost and the individual suite owners own the fixtures that consume the water. The sign up program eliminates the gap that exists between the water cost and the ownership of the fixtures that consume the water. The sign up program includes the individual owners signing an authorisation form to simple exchange their existing older toilets for the new water saving toilets and that ownership of the fixtures does not change. WCC provides a two year service warranty directly to each individual owner. WCC approach is to work with the individual owners to ensure they are completely comfortable with the new water saving fixtures.

The sign up program begins with an information flyer distributed to all of the residents of the condominium explaining the financial benefits of the water saving program for both the corporation and the individual owners of the suites in the condominium. The information flyer is followed with the sign up program completed by WCC. The sign up program at YCC # 455 resulted in over 88% of all of the existing residents agreeing to participate in the water saving fit up program. WCC has completed water saving fit up programs at other condominiums and has secured for various Boards sign up rates always exceeding 70% of residents. The sign up program also include the optional installation of new water and energy saving shower heads and faucet aerators.
The majority of the remaining residents that did not agree to participate in the water saving program had already installed new water efficient fixtures as part of individual washroom renovations.

Installation
The installation process begins with a notice of work schedule distributed to the participating residents. WCC attempts to accommodate any resident’s specific scheduling concerns in order to facilitate a personalized installation. The installation process includes the daily deliver of the fixtures to the building to be completed each day. The new fixtures are delivered to the scheduled floors and pre-assembled in the hallway at each door. The work done in each suite is completed in a well-organized process, resulting in a prompt and professional service. The installation of the new fixtures includes the removal and disposal of the existing toilets and re tapconing of the existing toilet flanges if required. The installation of new foam or wax rings, new floor bolts and new toilet supply lines. Installation of the new 6 litre per flush toilets in white, installation of new toilet seats, testing of the new toilets.

The old toilet fixtures are removed and disposed of in a large container and the site is completely cleaned up. The process continues until all of the new fixtures are installed. WCC completes the installation of approximately 40 to 45 new toilets per day resulting in a very quick program. Included with the new toilet is the supply and installation of the new shower heads and faucet aerators.
Dollar Savings
The completion of the water saving fit up at YCC # 455 has resulted in a new dramatically lower water consumption pattern for the condominium. The new daily water consumption pattern is 170.16 m3 per day. The new daily water consumption represents a 36 % drop in water consumption. The new daily water consumption will produce an annual dollar savings of $ 46,361.23 per year for YCC # 455 resulting in a very quick payback period.
---------------------------

It is hard to argue with these figures.

We would call the 150+ users of these toilets and ask them how they like the flaperless design after they were installed in 2005.


John, have you ever been wrong in judging a product?

I have been wrong many times, and I admit that I might have the wrong view of the flapperless design.

Time will tell.

 

[Caduceus]

I have seen a few and was not the first plumber that the customers had called to do repairs or service. I ran into the same issue as the plumbers before me, the customers thought that the other plumbers were lying when they said that repair parts were not available. It was true that I also couldn't find repair parts...at HD or anywhere else.
There seemed to be a common problem with the handles and fill valves not being very durable. I can't recall how the flush performed, but I never got to do the repairs anyways to test the full operation.
When I read a statement such as "Since flapper valves are the weakest point of almost every and almost all leak or will leak at some point this design is far superior to any thing else on the market at a price point no one can argue with." I have to be skeptical of the writer's intentions.
The focus on a unique feature and the condemnation of another leads me to believe the review is strictly promotional and biased. The toilet in my house has not needed a flapper change in the 8 years since I installed it, yet the few GB toilets that I saw were about a year old and started having problems.
Lastly, it is just a simple fact in the professional plumbing world that Glacier Bay is synonymous "cheap". Cheap materials, cheap design and a cheap price to appeal to people on a budget. The Big-Boys of the toilet industry could find a way around patenting and design (as they always do) if they felt that the operation was smart enough and appealing to consumers. Toto, Kohler and A.S. do not have bucket dumping toilets, that I'm aware of.
Just mt two cents....hope it pays off.

 

[Caduceus]

Sorry, previous post was written before reading the story above.
Boytonstu, I think that I can clear this up. Approximately 5.3 gallons per flush toilets were replaced with 1.6 GPF toilets. Regardless of the manufacturer, model, style, color, design, etc., the savings in water would obviously be dramatic. There is no mention of how well the Niagara flapperless toilet performs(ed) or if the customers were satisfied after a determined period of time. The specific calculation for how the aerators and showers heads effected the water consumption in relation to the toilet consumption also was not mentioned.
It kind of reads to me like some chest-beating article to tell people "Hey...Look at us! We're doing stuff!" when the whole article just breaks down to simple math: 5.3 - 1.6 = 3.7. Condos have been doing this for years and sometimes are required by law to change over. No mention of that in the article and may/may not be the case.
Also, consider that at $70 retail the condominium corporation could probably get a great deal buying in bulk. Maybe $40 a toilet is a good guess. Then they get reimbursed directly from the city of Toronto. That's $20 x approx 404 toilets in the 202 suites. Just over $8,000 profit in trading in the toilets to put toward the labor install. Maybe you would see American Standard or Kohler mentioned in the article if they had cut a better deal. Like I said, just a self-promoting article, that's all. We see them all of the time in the construction industry.
My previous post reflects my opinion on the toilet. Hope this calms an unsettled sea.

 

[Mr_David]

Caduceus, I love reading your comments. Very thorough and right on.
You picked out a lot of details that I just scanned over. Well done and well said.

 

[boytonstu]

Is Fluidmaster a cheap bad fill valve? (It is the only part that can leak.)

"It was the only sweat free toilet we could find, price was good, and installation turned out to be a breeze! It's in, working and no problems!!! We're curious though of feedback from users here. We did go online and it seems it's received some great feedback on water conservation (great with us, we have an artesian well and septic system, no town water or sewer)."

I have seen a few and was not the first plumber that the customers had called to do repairs or service. I ran into the same issue as the plumbers before me, the customers thought that the other plumbers were lying when they said that repair parts were not available. It was true that I also couldn't find repair parts...at HD or anywhere else.
There seemed to be a common problem with the handles and fill valves not being very durable. I can't recall how the flush performed, but I never got to do the repairs anyways to test the full operation.
When I read a statement such as "Since flapper valves are the weakest point of almost every and almost all leak or will leak at some point this design is far superior to any thing else on the market at a price point no one can argue with." I have to be skeptical of the writer's intentions.
The focus on a unique feature and the condemnation of another leads me to believe the review is strictly promotional and biased. The toilet in my house has not needed a flapper change in the 8 years since I installed it, yet the few GB toilets that I saw were about a year old and started having problems.
Lastly, it is just a simple fact in the professional plumbing world that Glacier Bay is synonymous "cheap". Cheap materials, cheap design and a cheap price to appeal to people on a budget. The Big-Boys of the toilet industry could find a way around patenting and design (as they always do) if they felt that the operation was smart enough and appealing to consumers. Toto, Kohler and A.S. do not have bucket dumping toilets, that I'm aware of.
Just mt two cents....hope it pays off.

Reviews both positive and negative here:


]Niagra Flapperless Toilet-Anyone have experience with these? [Archive] - DoItYourself.com Community Forums[/url]


"We have had some issues with these toilets, one problem is if when you flush the toilet, the blatter gets stuck on its side, tilted and then the water continues to flow. Remember we have installed about 660 of these toilets. We own a management company and have had about 10 toilets do this."

"I have 2 Niagara flapperless and been using for about 2 years. Very pleased with the performance.

Note:

They must be level.

You have to get used to pushing the handle all the way down EACH time you flush. You can easily check by pulling the handle back up if you think it is running.

The shut off sometimes needs to be adjusted by CAREFULLY bending the copper supply line in the tank.

The internals of the fill value are made by Fluidmaster (the rubber seal) if it does not shut off completely.

The 1.6 is the way to go, not the 1.3.

NOBODY sells these locally in Ohio, I ordered directly from the web site. The order arrive within 10 days, packaging was excellent, all parts arrived in good working order.

I would recommend this to anyone."



The good, the bad, and the ugly. (Ought to be a movie)

Now for the "impossible" to get repair parts:

If you seek, you shall find.

 

[johnjh2o]

It's becoming to be quite clear that this guy is a promoter for this piece of junk. They start with the pretext that there looking for help. I have to admit that this guy sucked me in.
I am new to this forum but others that I am a member of have a way to block senders, is there a way I can block this jerk?

Thanks John

 

[boytonstu]

It's becoming to be quite clear that this guy is a promoter for this piece of junk. They start with the pretext that there looking for help. I have to admit that this guy sucked me in.
I am new to this forum but others that I am a member of have a way to block senders, is there a way I can block this jerk?

Thanks John

I found out the above information today.

John, how long have you claimed that there are no spare parts available for this toilet that so many people love?

I have no stock in Niagara, Home Depot, or any connection to this product.

I do not own one.

I always do research prior to any purchase.

I believe that a toilet that cannot form condensate, cannot leak past a flush valve, that used a Fluidmaster fill valve and a simple float is a terrific design.

You can go to another forums that sells and promotes Toto toilets if you would like to read biased reviews.

There is a guy who runs a forum whose basic fear line is "I junk dozens of those toilets everyday".

Perhaps you are his shill.

 

[havasu]

If I could be allowed to interject my thoughts on this toilet, I find that it is similar to what vehicle is best...Ford or Chevy? Some like new innovative ideas, others believe that there is no reason to build a better mouse trap. All I would recommend is that boytonstu install this flapperless toilet, and keep us updated!

 

[boytonstu]

Havasu,

What percentage of toilet repairs were fill valves or flush valves?

(The Ford or Chevy comparison isn't valid unless one eliminated a major component such as a water pump, oil pump, etc.)

 

[havasu]

I myself prefer Kohler. I have 4 toilets in two houses, and besides maybe a flapper every three years, they run flawless. I once purchased a HD brand Pegasus pot filler faucet, and has leaked since day one. Yeah, I call the company and they send out replacement parts, but I'm really tired of the constant rebuilding. As said before, some of the folks here are tried and true plumbers, and they have already provided their thoughts. Nothing will change an experienced plumber's mind with a new fangled doohickey.