Multiple Shower Issues

I was worried I would finally have to call a real plumber to get this darn thing out.

I'm feeling rather pleased with myself that I managed to get this stupid thing outta there!

I am hugely relieved that the valve bore was not damaged in the process.

You can see how this ring inner surface is flared cone-shaped on the end that the foot valve fits into. That's what was on the backside, meaning there was no way to hook on to it to pull it out.

Now that everything has been pulled out of the main valve body, I will clean all the sediment out of it, then polish up all the surfaces which the rubber O-rings on the new fittings will need to seat against.

New parts are on order and hopefully will be in hand soon!

Time for another re-think! I learned another couple of new things today.

I had sent a request to Grohe Canada for help identifying this valve. First thing this morning I received a reply confirming what we've already figured out. That's good, as I've already gone ahead and ordered all the replacement parts.

One new thing learned concerns the mysterious numbers stamped on the valve cartridge "47025 0797". Those identify the cartridge as part number 47025000 belonging to a Grohmix valve assembly model number 34419000. The second number, 0797, is a date code, identifying the date of manufacture as July 1997. That makes sense as the house was built in 1998.

The second new thing I learned is a result of the attached PDF document, sent to me in the response from Grohe. It explains how to install the valve and how to correctly calibrate the temperature adjusting dial. Either mine was originally installed incorrectly, or somebody has subsequently had it apart and re-installed it incorrectly. Details to follow...

View attachment Grohe34419000.pdf

Way back on pg 3 of this thread, (post #26), I made some totally incorrect assumptions about how to calibrate the temperature dial. I've since edited that post so people will know it's wrong.

Here's how it actually works...

When the brass cartridge is screwed firmly into the valve housing, its outer row of spline teeth are fixed. They can't move.

When this black plastic "Limit Ring" is installed, the outer ring of teeth mesh with the brass spline teeth on the cartridge. So the Limit Ring cannot move either.

Mine is all crudded up with salt deposits, so it wasn't as clear as in this photo of a brand new Limit Ring. I thought that inner ring of spline teeth meant the centre section was a separate piece that could be slid out, rotated to a new angle, then re-inserted to adjust the position of the stops for the temperature indicator ring.

But it turns out this is all one solid piece. That inner ring of teeth serves no purpose in this installation. It's probably meant as a generic design that also fits an entirely different valve.

So how is the temperature indicating dial actually calibrated to read accurately?

Well...

The PDF document says to install the chrome sleeve (C) with its notch, and the black plastic Limit Ring with its indexing mark, both pointing up as shown here.

That's not the way mine was installed when I took it apart. The notch was instead pointing down.

The black plastic Limit Ring has a raised piece that mates with that notch in the chrome sleeve. It's difficult to see in this photo, but the shadow shows it clearly.

It's important to note that the Limit Ring is not being held from rotating by that notch in the chrome sleeve. It's the other way around. The Limit Ring is fixed in place by its spline teeth meshing onto the brass valve cartridge. That raised piece then fits into the notch of the chrome sleeve, thereby preventing the chrome sleeve from rotating.

The purpose of that notch is to provide a reference mark so that the Limit Ring is slipped over the brass spline teeth of the cartridge in the proper orientation, with the raised bump and notch at the top, not at the bottom as it was on mine. It could be oriented at any other angle, but top centre is where it's supposed to be.

The temperature dial, as shown earlier, has this white plastic knob, which bumps against the limiter stops inside the Limit Ring.

What I hadn't noticed earlier and only realized today, is that white plastic knob actually moves. It is spring loaded in a slot so it can slide a tiny bit radially toward the centre hole. The spring forces it back out to the perimeter.

It is located at the 100 degree indication on the temperature dial. The dial is marked in white lettering for 70, 80, 90 and 110 degrees. The 100 degree indicator is in red lettering.

Here's how the dial was incorrectly installed on mine. The Limit Ring had been incorrectly installed with notch pointing down instead of up. But the temperature dial had been installed with its numbers facing up so they'd be visible to anyone standing in the shower. That meant the white plastic knob was limited by the stops inside the Limit Ring so it could only swing through the range marked by the red arrows. That's wrong.

With the Limit Ring instead positioned correctly with the notch at the top, and the temp dial again mounted with its numbers facing up, the white plastic knob would instead correctly swing through the much larger arc marked by the green arrows.

Plus, there is a detente notch into which the spring-loaded white knob will click and hold the dial at the red-marked 100 degree position! You can still choose to force the dial to turn beyond that spring detente to the 110 degree position. But it's there as a safety warning.

All of that is to get the dials lined up correctly. They weren't on mine. But how do you calibrate the dial to accurately show the correct temperature?

I'll explain further...

The temperature is controlled by the cartridge, which mixes the incoming hot/cold water supplies. But the cartridge is screwed into the housing. Depending on how the matching threads are cut, or how much final torque is applied to drive in the cartridge, or what the actual supply temperature from your hot water tank is, how do you know what angle of the cartridge shaft corresponds accurately with the 100 degree temperature dial position???

Note that the centre shaft of the cartridge is cone-shaped to fit into the cone-shaped centre of the temperature indicator dial. There are no indexing marks to align the two. They can mesh at any chosen angle and are then only fixed in one position by pressure from the brass retaining screw clamping them together.

Simple enough, you hold a thermometer under the faucet and rotate the dial (regardless of the numbers indicated on the dial) until the water comes out at 100 degrees.

Then loosen the brass retaining screw just enough so the dial can be turned freely without changing the angle of the centre shaft of the cartridge. Turn the temp dial alone until it clicks into the 100 degree detente position.

Then re-tighten the brass retaining screw to clamp the indicator dial firmly against the cone-shaped centre shaft of the cartridge.

Now the dial accurately indicates 100 degrees. Check again to confirm with the thermometer the water actually is at 100 degrees. Presto! You're done.

I just got an update from FedEx. The new parts are supposed to be delivered tomorrow morning. Yippee!

Oooooh, Ahhhhhh. Well, ain't these pretty?

2 filter cartridges
1 temperature control cartridge
3 flow valves for shower head, tub faucet, and side jets.

But nothing's ever simple...

Naturally, there's good news, and bad news.

The good news is the new filter cartridges screwed right in and the fancy new temperature control cartridge works perfectly. I can now adjust the water temperature from icy cold all the way to scalding hot. Yippee!

The bad news is that when I open those two stop valves (#1 & #2) to turn the water back on, #1 now leaks! When the system is pressurized, water drips out the end of #1, and falls down behind the shower wall. And, if I turn it all the way back in it no longer completely stops the water either.

#@$!

I turned it all the way in for now, and opened the handle for the tub faucet, because this way at least the water is dripping into the tub and down the drain (again!). That's better than having the water drip down behind the shower wall.

I'm guessing those things have never been touched before, and now after running them in and out the seals are damaged. I've ordered replacements for both of those as well. Of course to replace them I now actually will have to turn off the main supply to the entire house. But at least I will have new parts in hand when it comes time to do that.

I was soooooo close to being finished with this job.

Progress Report:

No progress. I'm still waiting on delivery of those two stop valves.

Meanwhile, I did some preliminary investigating on another plumbing mystery in our recently purchased house. See other thread, "Curious Kohler Spaghetti Piping Arrangement".

Success!

The two stop valves finally arrived today. Everything is reassembled, and it works!

Nothing drips when the valves are closed, and water temperature can now be adjusted from icy cold all the way to toasty hot.

Here's a photo of the old vs. new stop valves. The plastic foot of the hot water shutoff valve was all crumbled. 's all good now.

I'm a happy camper.

I have never seen that type no sure if the name you have picture
I from the shower valve or Fiberglas shower 1st place I would
start would be a plumbing suppy house to see if they can make
heads or tails from the pics