Well constant pressure system...yay? Nay? Pros? Cons?

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JMG32

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Bought a house last year that is on a well, which is a new thing to us. I am looking to have a whole house carbon filter and water softener installed in our home and was curious about constant pressure systems. I've read about them online but am not entirely sure what they do (besides the very obvious...constant pressure). Have a lot of questions:

1. Will it INCREASE my current water pressure? Our current pressure is not great. To weak to even wash a car or water the lawn effectively.

2. Will it replace the Well-X-Trol water pump that is currently in our basement? When the guy was here to check things out for putting in a filter and softener, he noted that the installed pump was undersized for our house.

3. The guy I am looking to use installs Grundfos systems. From all I can see online, they appear to be among the best. Thoughts?

4. Any pros/cons overall? They aren't cheap, so thought I'd check here for some unvarnished opinions.

TIA
 
Constant pressure is a wonderful thing. However, there are two ways to get it. The variable speed type pumps called VFD's use a computer to slow the pump down. These are very expensive, not repairable, and don't last very long. Pump companies make a lot more money from you now and in the future if they can talk you into one of those VFD Tar Babies.

You can also get constant pressure with a simple, mechanical, inexpensive, and long lasting valve. The Cycle Stop Valve was designed to replace VFD's nearly 30 years ago. You can see how it works here.

 
I've had a number of high power VFD drives/motors, and none were "unreliable". The largest I had was a 25HP model; yeah, huge. Operated a car wash system. You definitely want a matched system; a motor (or pump) designed for VFD operation, and a recommended VFD drive. What that means is you can't reliably take a new VFD drive and place it on some old well pump or other motor that wasn't designed for it. Use of VFD drives on domestic water wells is just one minor use of VFD technology. I would hardly call it something designed to separate a homeowner from his money.

That being said, a friend of mine has a VFD drive pump on his home in Michigan. It made the well system like city water: constant pressure and velocity. He hasn't had issues with it. You dial in the pressure you want on the drive control and that's it. His is about 6 years old.

I have not tried a cycle stop valve system.
 
What a VFD does is great. But after six years he better be ready to replace it, as he is already on borrowed time with a VFD. The little domestic size VFD's are not even as robust as the larger ones you had problems with. And VFD's are designed to separate a homeowner from his/her money. The first little domestic VFD's came out in 1999. That pump manufacturer told me it was to compete with the constant pressure of the Cycle Stop Valve with something that didn't make the pump last forever and shoot their planned obsolescence in the foot. You can have strong city like constant pressure using a CSV and the pump will last many times longer than when using a VFD.
 
Was reading some reviews on Amazon for the cycle stop valve and some folks say it just works buy building back pressure and ruptured their pipes.
 
Was reading some reviews on Amazon for the cycle stop valve and some folks say it just works buy building back pressure and ruptured their pipes.

Yeah but you have to read through hundreds of 5 star reviews to find one idiot with 40+ year old pipe to complain about. Even then it was bad pipe. And pipe with pin holes had pin holes in it before they added the CSV. Problems from old or bad pipe is just that, and has nothing to do with the CSV.

Pumps build back pressure, that is what they do. The CSV makes a pump build a little more back pressure, so it doesn't pump more water than you need and cycle the pump and system to death. But it can't cause more back pressure than your pump can build, so just check the max pressure of your pump.

Do enough research and you can find someone who wasn't happy with a ten million dollar lotto win. Some people would complain about nickle beer and a free steak dinner. If all those 5 star reviews on Amazon wasn't enough for you, here are several hundred more, with pictures!
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews
 
I too am interested in constant pressure and recently had my well pump replaced with a non VFD pump. I have an irrigation system and my water was recently tested and is acidic. How will the CSV hold up in this condition? How long should I expect it to last and what is the warranty? I believe my pressure tank is 68 gallons. Will the pump turn on with every toilet flush? Thanks.
 
Cycle Stop Valves are either Stainless Steel or Plastic, and acidic water is fine. Most of the first CSV's installed 28 years ago are still working, so really can't tell you how long they will last. Have a picture from a customer who had an old Hydroservant type valve, which is similar to the CSV, and his pump system finally gave up the ghost after 52 years. That is exactly why Red Jacket stopped making the Hydroservant, and why Franklin stopped making the Aquagenie they bought from Jacuzzi. It is also why there is so much false propaganda against the CSV. Pump companies want you to have an expensive and short lived Variable Speed pump system, and will say anything to keep people from using a CSV and having their pump systems last 50+ years. Written warranty on a CSV is one year, but we would never hold to that for anyone who had a problem many years down the road. Most failures are from the CSV being packed with sand or let freeze and burst, yet many times we still issue a curtesy replacement, as we have so few warranties we can do that.

Your 68 gallon pressure tank holds about 15 gallons of water. You will have to use this 15 gallons before the pump will start, so no the pump will not start when flushing a single toilet. However, most CSV's are used with a 4.5 gallon size tank that only holds 1 gallon of water. With the small tank the pump will start when flushing a single toilet. However, the CSV will keep the pump running continuously until you are finished using water. That means you could flush a thousand times in a row and the pump only cycles once. Your water doesn't come from the tank, it comes from the well and pump. The tanks only purpose is to limit the number of times the pump cycles on and off. When you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, you don't need much of a tank.

The small tank used with a CSV is just a mechanical timer. The CSV will fill the tank at 1 GPM, the tank holds 1 gallon, so you get 1 minute of pump run time after flushing or shutting off any faucet. In this way the CSV is making sure you are finished using water before the pump is shut off. The small tank will cause the pump to cycle for a toilet flush, but the CSV eliminates all cycles for long term uses like showers and sprinklers. Even if the pump cycled for every toilet flush, which is doesn't, it will still cycle much less overall using a CSV than not.
 
ok. Thanks. So, does that mean that the CSV will really only come into play when tank drains down to where water pressure hits 40 psi and triggers the pressure switch? The pump would then kick in and then the CSV would keep pressure at 55 psi until you shut the water off and the tank then fills again and then shuts off the pump at 60 psi?
 
Yes that"s it. The CSV is not connected to electricity in any way. It can't do anything until the tank is empty, the pump starts, and the tank is refilled to 55 psi. Only works when you need it.
 
OK. Thanks. I just want to clarify. The pressure will still fall to 40 psi when you initially use water? The pump will then kick in and the valve will set the pressure to 55psi?
Also, when these valves go bad, what are the warning signs? I don't want to come home to a basement full of water. Any information regarding reliability, keeping in mind that my water is acidic and will require a neutralizer. Thanks.
 
Also, isn't still advantageous to have the larger 62 gallon tank that I have now over a one gallon tank. This way all the toilet flushes just come from the tank reserve? Thanks again.
 
The CSV1A can handle anything you have. But when a CSV does fail it just turns into piece of pipe and your pump just goes back to cycling on and off when using water. Keeping in mind that the CSV is just a simple valve. Most have lasted 28 years so far and still going strong, it is not likely to fail. There were other brands of similar valves prior to the CSV and many of those are still working 50+ years on.

Again, a 62 gallon size tank only holds 15 gallons of water. Most houses use at least 300 gallons per day, so 15 gallons doesn't go very far. Your water comes from the well, not the tank. The tanks only purpose is to limit the number of cycles, and when you have a Cycle Stop Valve to do that for you, a large tank is not needed and is a detriment to your pressure. While you are using the 15 gallons from the tank the pressure will be dropping from 60 all the way to 40. With a 2 GPM shower the first 7 minutes will be at ever reducing pressure. Then when the pump comes on and the CSV starts delivering a constant 55 for as long as the shower last, you will notice and like the difference in pressure. With the small tank the pump is up and running and the CSV is at strong constant pressure before you step in the tub.

If you are trying to make sense of this you can't, because pumps are counter intuitive. You have to be thinking opposite of what your brain believes. Pumps like to run 24/7/365. Restricting a pump with a valve makes it work easier, not harder. Smaller pressure tanks offer stronger constant pressure than large tanks when working with a CSV. Standard size pressure tanks and variable speed drives are being pushed on people because it is the worst thing you can do, as far as making your pump system last. But the pump companies will just let you keep believing big tanks or VFD's are better and are laughing all the way to the bank.

Here is chart made by a homeowner like you. As you can see there is big benefit to using a CSV no matter what size tank you have. However, 18 or 35 cycles per day is not important as what we are trying to prevent is hundred of cycles per day, which is what happens without a CSV. House use only is the worst case for a CSV as when irrigating or showering the CSV only allows 1 cycle, no matter how long the shower or the irrigation zone.

Cycles per day.jpg
 
I have irrigation. Tomorrow I will run a larger zone and see if the pump even cycles. For all I know once it kicks in it may never shut off until the zone shuts off. If that is the case, would a cycle stop valve even provide a benefit as far as pressure goes? I don't really notice big pressure drops in the house. I am just hoping to the lawn sprinklers to work their best. Thanks.
 
Well to my surprise, the pump does cycle during one 20 minute zone. The zone used 171 gallons and the pump cycled 3 times. The pump shuts off for about 80 seconds and turns on for about 6 minutes each time.
 
I will run a larger zone and see if the pump even cycles.

Larger zone? What happens with the smaller zones? In the past matching the sprinkler zone with the output of the pump was the best you could do. And no, if all your sprinklers zones are matched to the pump a CSV won't help with that. Adding a CSV would cause another 5-10 PSI loss of pressure on the large zones. However, matching the sprinkler zones to the pump means the sprinklers are using all the water the pump can produce, so shower pressure would be dismal at the same time the sprinklers are on.

Usually not all the zones are matched to the pump, You may have one large zone that uses enough water to prevent the pump from cycling, but there maybe several smaller zones that do cause cycling. Adding a CSV would solve the cycling problem on the smaller zones, but cause 10 PSI loss on the really large zone.

Ideally you want the largest sprinkler zones to be about 5 GPM less than the pump can supply, and let the CSV eliminate the cycling. In this way you have 5 GPM saved for house use, and you won't even know the sprinklers are on when in the shower. Even if you have all the zones matched to the pump, the pump will still cycle when used for the house.

Lawn sprinklers work best with constant pressure. Not only will cycling on and off shorten the life of the pump system, but the pressure going from 40 to 60 over and over makes managing the sprinkler pattern very difficult.
 
Well to my surprise, the pump does cycle during one 20 minute zone. The zone used 171 gallons and the pump cycled 3 times. The pump shuts off for about 80 seconds and turns on for about 6 minutes each time.

Since the pump cycles for every zone you have, you will not notice the 10 PSI loss through the CSV. The 10 PSI loss in part of the way the CSV stops the pump from cycling. Resting for 80 seconds is OK. But the motor will still have some heat in it when called to re-start. Starting a motor even when it is cool is not good for it, so starting before it has had enough time to cool down is really not good for it.
 
That zone has 4 nozzles that total 11gpm. I will run the test on another zone later today. The sprinklers are done by the time anybody wakes up in the morning, so there is no house use when they are on. Forgive me, I am not sure I understand the psi loss that might come from the CSV. I was thinking that the tank would supply the initial sprinkle and when the psi hits 40, the pump would turn on and from there the CSV would keep the pressure at 55psi. Should I simply bump the nozzle sizes up so that I pump more water and eliminate the pump from filling the tank. I appreciate your help in getting me to understand this.
 
The CSV1A has about a 10 PSI loss across it. You would only ever see that loss when running all the water the pump can produce. If your sprinklers are set up to use all the water the pump can produce, the pump will not cycle on/off while the sprinklers are on. This is the way it should be if you do not have a Cycle Stop Valve to stop the cycling. So, if your pump is cycling on/off for every sprinkler zone you need to "bump the nozzle size up" to keep that from happening. This is why sprinklers are run at night, because when the sprinklers are using all the water the pump can supply, there isn't enough pressure left to take a shower.

When using a CSV the sprinklers do not need to be sized to use all the water the pump can produce, and you don't have to run the sprinklers at night. The CSV will let you match the sprinklers to the yard, not the pump, and you can run them anytime and shower pressure won't be affected.

If you already have a zone or two that do not cause the pump to cycle on/off, adding a CSV will cause those sprinklers to see 10 PSI less. But if all your zones cause the pump to cycle on/off, the CSV will make the pressure stronger by keeping the pump from cycling.
 
OK, I decided to use a stop watch and lap counter this time and I ran two zones. Both zones have 11gpm worth of heads. The first zone ran for 4min 30 seconds each time and shut off for 1min 25 sec. The other zone ran for 3min 45 sec and shut off for 1.25 sec. Both zones run for 20 min. I have 12 zones. Thoughts? If I add a CSV, what pressure should it be set at? I currently have a 40/60 pressure switch.
 

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