Can I have help finding a Wi-Fi controlled ON/OFF Timer for my water heater's recirculator pump?

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Jeff Davis said:
Thanks!! You just made my day when you told me that the Aqua-stat thing just clips on.
I'd been thinking all along that both the Aqua-stat system and that other one (I forget the name) needs a thermometer of some type with a little probe that's actually in the water flowing by so if I was going to try doing this installation myself, I'd need to find where to plumb it in & hire a plumber to do that.
Just clipping it on anywhere will be easy as heck.
As far as the recirculation pump being plumbed backwards, I'd have to say that's no way possible. It has worked perfectly for 27 years since the house was new. There are 286 other homes in this tract that were all built in the late 80s and early 90s by Standard Pacific with this same recirculation plumbing.
It draws the water out of the bottom of the heater from the outlet that also has a place to put a garden hose on to drain it.
I think this recirculation system must have dedicated return lines since it's not a silly conversion add-on situation & there's never any hot water in cold faucets.
Click to expand...
That installation of your recirc system is not the typical/traditional way of doing it. I don't care how many other homes was done that way.

If you use nothing more than a timer to control the pump operation, it will still get the hot water circulated throughout the HW distribution system, albeit flowing backwards from the normal direction of flow.
Here's a simple diagram showing the typical setup. This diagram includes an Aquastat, which also helps in showing why the flow should be through the fixtures first, then return to water heater.
You wouldn't want to monitor the water temperature at a point before it reaches the actual fixtures. It would work but obviously not the preferred design.

hot-water-circulator-typical-installation-2.jpg
 
Jeff Davis said:
I guess I need to do the Aqua-stat & timer deal. That's just a plug it in, plug the recirculation pump into it & clip on the heat-sensor somewhere deal, right?
If so, where should I clip it on? I'm gonna guess up on the pipe that brings hot water out of the top of the water heater, as far away from the water heater as I can?
Click to expand...
Since your recirc pump system is pushing water from the bottom of the water heater, presumably through your hot water loop feeding your fixtures, then returns to the tank by way of the hot water pipe that typically flows out and not into the tank, I don't know of a BEST location for it. Well I do but you'd have to run your wire all the way back from somewhere near your fixtures, back to the pumps power supply.
 
Jeff Davis said:
How does that other system that was mentioned here, that's an On Demand deal that only starts the recirculation pump when it senses water flowing, sense water flow? Would it take any plumbing alterations to add something that senses the water flow?
If it would, I think that for sure I should just go with the Aqua-stat & timer deal.
Click to expand...
Not sure I know what you're talking about and my head is spinning as it is, without trying to figure what you could be referring to. Sorry.
 
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If you want to do it right, replace that old pump, set it up as the typical diagram shows, with Aquastat on return line.

The other thing I'm (we're) missing is how/where that pump discharge line ties into the fixture loop.

Just sell the house!:)
 
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@Diehard 's post with the diagram is great. It's correct. And as I mentioned above in my posts--which were never addressed--you do NOT need a pump. No pump, no aquastats, or timers, no worrying about pin hole leaks, or turbulance or long sweep elbows or any complex shenanigans. No phone Apps, no internet enable outlets or what have you. There's elegance in simplicity.

@Jeff Davis you showed a photo of your home in SoCal. It's two stories unless those windows are false and there's no second floor. If you have a two story home and there's hot water on the second floor, you have requirement #1: "head" or a height difference between hot water source and hot water use.

If you look at Diehard's diagram, all you need to do to implement a thermosiphon, "pumpless" hot water recirculation system is remove the pump, and ensure you have a swing style check valve mounted HORIZONTALLY before the entrance at the BOTTOM of the hot water tank. That swing style check valve is requirement #2. This is as simple as simple gets, and it works. Again, I had this and lived with it flawlessly for 27 years.

https://www.homedepot.com/s/swing%20check%20valve?NCNI-5
 
Yes, I like the simplicity of the thermosiphon design.
Reminds me of the days when gravity heating system were fairly common.

I assume that check valve, he would be adding, would want to be installed to allow flow INTO the tank bottom. Correct?
 
Diehard said:
Yes, I like the simplicity of the thermosiphon design.
Reminds me of the days when gravity heating system were fairly common.

I assume that check valve, he would be adding, would want to be installed to allow flow INTO the tank bottom. Correct?
Click to expand...

Yes, @Diehard you are correct: directional flow is INTO the tank. Must be a swing check (no cracking pressure), and must be mounted horizontally. The flow is low and slow, but it works great.

I had to explain this to a plumber recently, who didn't get it. Yet, it's all science; and it was explained to ME by a plumber. This plumbing contractor I was trying to explain it to was coming up with solutions that sounded like this thread; all kinds of pumps and timers, valves under the sink and I told him it's all complex unneeded nonsense. Of course an aeronautical engineer will tell you a bumblebee can't fly either. LOL.

If anyone here has been to Israel, you've noticed that every home has a solar hot water system on the roof: it's code. They all work with a thermosiphon circulation system; no pumps are needed. The hot water is generated in the solar collectors, and circulates to a storage tank. Note collectors low, tanks high: that's the needed "head" for the system to work.

upload_2020-1-28_14-22-39.png
 
Mitchell-DIY-Guy said:
Yes, @Diehard you are correct: directional flow is INTO the tank. Must be a swing check (no cracking pressure), and must be mounted horizontally. The flow is low and slow, but it works great.

I had to explain this to a plumber recently, who didn't get it. Yet, it's all science; and it was explained to ME by a plumber. This plumbing contractor I was trying to explain it to was coming up with solutions that sounded like this thread; all kinds of pumps and timers, valves under the sink and I told him it's all complex unneeded nonsense. Of course an aeronautical engineer will tell you a bumblebee can't fly either. LOL.

If anyone here has been to Israel, you've noticed that every home has a solar hot water system on the roof: it's code. They all work with a thermosiphon circulation system; no pumps are needed. The hot water is generated in the solar collectors, and circulates to a storage tank. Note collectors low, tanks high: that's the needed "head" for the system to work.

View attachment 23144
Click to expand...
HELP please guys. While I definitely appreciate all the help, this discussion is way over my head, both in information and in actually getting something done to my system. Since I couldn't do the plumbing myself, I'd need to get a plumber to do it and I'd even need to be able to explain to him what I want and how to do it. I might even need to convince him to do it my way if he thought that there's a better way. Not good.
This talk about swing style check valves & thermosiphon, "pumpless" hot water recirculation systems means very little to me other than I do know what a check valve does and that hot air or water rises. That's it. Other than that, call me dumb.
Meanwhile, can you tell which way this pump would be pushing water? The 2 pinhole leaks that were spraying have been in the pipe that comes out the top. I don't remember if the pump was on but I don't think it was. I stopped the spray by closing the yellow handled valve that's to the far right in this photo.
Thanks for more lessons. I believe your saying that the recirculation system is plumbed backwards of how it should be even though it works. I don't understand that and I'm a mechanically oriented type guy that likes to know stuff like that.
So can you help me figure out where I would want to clip the Aqua-stat temp sensor on & what size I'd want to buy? I say size since I saw different sizes for sale on Amazon.
They did use a piece of flex tubing that's way too long. See my photo.
 

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Mitchell-DIY-Guy said:
@Diehard 's post with the diagram is great. It's correct. And as I mentioned above in my posts--which were never addressed--you do NOT need a pump. No pump, no aquastats, or timers, no worrying about pin hole leaks, or turbulance or long sweep elbows or any complex shenanigans. No phone Apps, no internet enable outlets or what have you. There's elegance in simplicity.

@Jeff Davis you showed a photo of your home in SoCal. It's two stories unless those windows are false and there's no second floor. If you have a two story home and there's hot water on the second floor, you have requirement #1: "head" or a height difference between hot water source and hot water use.

If you look at Diehard's diagram, all you need to do to implement a thermosiphon, "pumpless" hot water recirculation system is remove the pump, and ensure you have a swing style check valve mounted HORIZONTALLY before the entrance at the BOTTOM of the hot water tank. That swing style check valve is requirement #2. This is as simple as simple gets, and it works. Again, I had this and lived with it flawlessly for 27 years.

https://www.homedepot.com/s/swing%20check%20valve?NCNI-5
Click to expand...
It's definitely a 2-story home with 2 full baths upstairs. I don't know what that matters but you surely do. I wouldn't mind having that 27 year old recirculation pump removed if things could be made to work well without it which I think has you've said here about a thermosiphon, "pumpless" hot water recirculation system. The pump is so old and shows some signs of having leaked at some point in the past. I looked them up and a new one would cost me about $200 & up plus labor.
 
Yes, @Diehard that's 100% correct with the BEFORE and AFTER.
@Jeff Davis if this is beyond your comprehension to understand or execute, it's pretty simple to get a plumber in to do this. Just show him the photos and Diehard's diagrams.

One thing: LEAVE in a ball valve near the bottom of the tank. There are times when you may want to simple "turn it off", even if ONLY when you have to change the tank. They never last forever, so plan for the future. Any good plumber would do that even without asking, but best to ask anyway!
 
Diehard said:
HERE YOU GO...
View attachment 23147

BEFORE
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Wow, cool. That's easy as heck. I guess if I wanted to get gutsy, I could unplug that recirculation pump, drain the water heater with a garden hose and just take it apart and put a piece of flexible tubing that's a little longer than that destroyed one that's on there myself?
So is something in my system now keeping the thermosiphon from happening? It must be since the hot water always takes awhile to get anywhere if the recirculation pump is OFF.
 
Jeff Davis said:
Wow, cool. That's easy as heck. I guess if I wanted to get gutsy, I could unplug that recirculation pump, drain the water heater with a garden hose and just take it apart and put a piece of flexible tubing that's a little longer than that destroyed one that's on there myself?
So is something in my system now keeping the thermosiphon from happening? It must be since the hot water always takes awhile to get anywhere if the recirculation pump is OFF.
Click to expand...
Looks like you may have a check which would be preventing the gravity flow.
Also, that circulator probably has a built-in check valve. Many do.
 
Jeff Davis said:
So is something in my system now keeping the thermosiphon from happening? It must be since the hot water always takes awhile to get anywhere if the recirculation pump is OFF.
Click to expand...

YES. The pump is in the way! The thermosiphon is very low flow...low and slow. It won't push past the vanes in a pump. the direction of the flow is controlled by the check valve INTO the bottom of water tank (the check valves ALWAYS have directional arrows on them). The hot water RISES out of the top of the tank and goes all the way to the top of your home where the return line starts. By then it's a little cooler, and is being pushed by the continually rising hot water...the cooler water then returns to the bottom of the tank.

It has to be a "swing" style check valve because "spring style" check valves require pressure to open; that pressure is known as the "cracking pressure". There's no discernable cracking pressure on a swing check, and generally no seals to wear out. That's why mine was in for 27 years without failure.
 
Diehard said:
Didn't you look at the specifications?

View attachment 23120
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Thanks, yes I remember seeing those. Which one is better for simple homeowner use? I don't know which temps I want it kept running between. It might matter that since I'm in southern California, the temp in the walls is warmer than in other parts of the country all year long.
I've wondered how often & how long an Aqua-stat would run the recirculation pump on the cool, warm & hot days & nights.
If I were to get crazy and try pulling the pump off myself, wouldn't I just close this yellow handled valve & put a garden hose on by it & open it's valve to drain the water heater? Would that also drain the pipes above the recirculation pump so I could remove it? If there's no check valve in there, it could flow backwards thru the recirculation pump, couldn't it?
You said "add a swing check valve with the direction of flow towards the tank". Which direction, can you put an arrow on my photo like you did before?
 

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Diehard said:
Looks like you may have a check which would be preventing the gravity flow.
Also, that circulator probably has a built-in check valve. Many do.
Click to expand...
I do see some things in the line above and below the pump. Are those the check valves? Do they seal pretty good, enough to keep the water from all draining out very fast if I were to disconnect the pipe below it and immediately put a new piece of flex line in there? I know I'd need to work quickly as I bet those check valves don't stop all the flow but just most of it? Or do they seal pretty good?
While I'm asking questions, then does it look like all I'd need to do is pull the pump and that oddly bent piece of flexible line off and replace it with a longer piece since maybe the check valves are already in place?
This all makes me wonder, if this will really work this simply, why do all these houses here and in so many other places have recirculation pumps?
Also I should ask, with what I have in place now, if I have the recirculation pump OFF, it always takes awhile to get any hot water anywhere in the house. So, just taking the recirculation pump out will change that? Why?
 
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I guess it's time for me to stop fooling myself that I can or should do any of this myself. I'm really short on cash, living on federal disability & no other family income. Our savings are going away fast with a mortgage payment & 2 kids in college.
Could someone please tell me in detail exactly what I should get quotes to have done? A photo in that same posting would be awesome so I wouldn't need to dig thru this long thread to find one if a plumber needed to see it to understand that I knew what I'm asking for.
 
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