recirc pump, remote control

[joe99]

I guess the could go in another forum, but, I'll start here.

Looking for a wireless remote control to control a Taco recirc pump.

I have a well and a tankless heater setup. I disliked the idea of wasting water that I had to pump and treat, only to put it back in the septic, unused, just to get hot to the tap.

So, years ago, I rigged up a bronze taco, added a recirc line, check valves, expansion tank, a small electric heater tank. Ditched the heater element and used the thermostat along with other relays and a strap on aquastat on the return pipe to recirc water to keep the pipe hot. Along with a programmable timer to keep it off at selected times.

Well, that is fine, but, I want to simplify this. Seems a wireless push button and relay, like a door bell or garage opener along with a bit of wiring, should allow me to push a button at each tap to recir water till it gets hot at the tap.

I was gonna cobble and hack, but figured I would try here to see if something is already made.

 

[Diehard]

I'm not that familiar with all these gadgets, they're always advertising, but don't they have SMART PLUGS that can be controlled from your cell phone?

EDIT: Not sure how you'd automate this part.
"...to recir water till it gets hot at the tap."

 

[joe99]

I'm not that familiar with all these gadgets, they're always advertising, but don't they have SMART PLUGS that can be controlled from your cell phone?

EDIT: Not sure how you'd automate this part.
"...to recir water till it gets hot at the tap."

I kinda shorted that part. I have a strap on aquastat on the recirc line near the end, to shut off when the pipe gets hot. So "technically" it is not hot at the tap, it will still take a couple seconds to come up to the tap. All on one floor makes it easier.

 

[Jeff Handy]

There are smart outlets, controlled by a wifi controller, or a phone or computer.

And also simpler outlets that are controlled by battery powered push button transmitters, just a radio frequency link.

You can get ones with different channels, to command one outlet or any outlets you want.

Look on Amazon, both types are common on there.

No wiring needed.

 

[joe99]

The ones I've seen on Amazon, as they all seem to have "key fob" types of buttons that look a bit dicey to mount to a wall.

There are some I have seen that have wall mount "door bell" type pushbuttons that do not require a battery at all. I have one of those install at home. Don't know how they manage to generate the transmit power, but, it works fine.

I'd use one of those, but they do not make a "relay" type of receiver, only the chime (wall plug type) and refuse to consider making something like that.

Were there is will, there is a way.
+

 

[Jeff Handy]

There is no magic, there is a little battery in there somewhere.
Sometimes not replaceable, in junky stuff.

There are battery powered transmitters that wall mount.
Keep looking, I have bought several types.
Some with one button, or five or six, to control different devices.
The wireless outlet receivers are a/c powered.
And they are in effect a relay, taking a low power signal to switch a house current load.

You seem to want the exact easy and cheap system in your dreams to appear, very doubtful.

We have had this same kind of runaround conversation with other posters before, trying to do pretty much your same thing.

I hope you can find what you want, as a DIY solution, but it tends to go nowhere.

Hire a pro, who will already know what is available, exactly how you want.

 

[frodo]

simply run a 12/2 with a ground from the light switch in the bathroom back to the pump in the boiler room

if you have 2 bathrooms and want to wire both of them. change the light switch to a 3 way switch
and run a jumper between the 2 bathrooms

or. if you do not like the light idea
install a motion sensor in each bathroom wired back to the pump

 

[joe99]

simply run a 12/2 with a ground from the light switch in the bathroom back to the pump in the boiler room

if you have 2 bathrooms and want to wire both of them. change the light switch to a 3 way switch
and run a jumper between the 2 bathrooms

or. if you do not like the light idea
install a motion sensor in each bathroom wired back to the pump

While those are useful thoughts, I have considered running wires, such as a low voltage "door bell" thing, that just energizes a relay to run the pump, then turns off when the strap on aquastat says so. Pretty simple and I already have most of the bits installed.

However, in this house, all the interior walls have fiberglass insulation in them, I guess for sound deadening. Regardless, that makes running any wires, anywhere, a real pain. Since I usually do not have a helper, it gets very frustrating.

I would be doing 2 baths, the kitchen and maybe a cellar sink and 1/2 bath, if I ever get around to installing that.

Thanks.

 

[aaronml]

Can't say that I fully understand what the OP is trying to do, but FWIW might this circuitry be useful:


Full disclosure: I tried to build this and have not been able to get it to work, but this is probably just me!

 

[joe99]

Can't say that I fully understand what the OP is trying to do, but FWIW might this circuitry be useful:


Full disclosure: I tried to build this and have not been able to get it to work, but this is probably just me!

Actually, I had considered doing something similar, using the same style of wireless doorbell I now use and hacking the receiver to replace the "sounder off" bit with a relay or two.

I may have mentioned I approached the sellers about offering an "open ended" or "contractor" version, but they dismissed that out of hand.

Sado Tech, in my limited experience, has one of the most reliable lineups available, in that price range.

 

[Diehard]

I'm missing something.
Why can't a simple smart plug controlled from your cell phone work for you?
Why relays, etc.?

I assume your aquastat control is tied into the power to the pump, also.

 

[joe99]

I'm missing something.
Why can't a simple smart plug controlled from your cell phone work for you?
Why relays, etc.?

I assume your aquastat control is tied into the power to the pump, also.

That could work, but would require everyone to have a phone and the app installed. Fine for me, but guests would not have it. And I might not have the phone with me each time.

Yes the aquastat is strapped to the recirc line near the pump. It is wired to turn the pump off when temperature is reached.

 

[Diehard]

Sounds like you want to be looking at one of those many radio frequency types.
https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Mul...ed-search-10&pf_rd_t=BROWSE&pf_rd_i=573765011

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

To each their own I suppose...but you are hardly "wasting water" that you essentially do not pay for. The water that you let run to get hot simply goes back to the aquifer from which it came, ready for your use again. Assuming you have a water softener else you probably wouldn't have a tankless in Stone Ridge!

Having a system with pumps and controls adds a measure of cost and complexity to an otherwise simple system. That's additional maintenance. Many of these controls are all kind of marginal quality and they will unlikely last as long as your well pump or even your recirculation pump. That means additional repair/replacement/maintenance over the long term. Then, you also probably have check valves, and more and these don't last forever either.

There are a number of ways to achieve "no waiting for hot water", and you should explore them all. There's not a whole lot of water down the drain waiting in the system you have, and you may be spending a lot of effort engineering a system to save very little water. If you cobble something together, be ready to remove it all if you sell the house...buyers and inspectors don't like to see these home-brew systems on a somewhat essential home system.

 

[joe99]

Sounds like you want to be looking at one of those many radio frequency types.
https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Mul...ed-search-10&pf_rd_t=BROWSE&pf_rd_i=573765011

I did consider that type, but did not like the transmitter arrangement.

"Perfectionist" has been hurled at me, from time to time. Compromise is in order, I guess.

 

[joe99]

To each their own I suppose...but you are hardly "wasting water" that you essentially do not pay for. The water that you let run to get hot simply goes back to the aquifer from which it came, ready for your use again. Assuming you have a water softener else you probably wouldn't have a tankless in Stone Ridge!

Having a system with pumps and controls adds a measure of cost and complexity to an otherwise simple system. That's additional maintenance. Many of these controls are all kind of marginal quality and they will unlikely last as long as your well pump or even your recirculation pump. That means additional repair/replacement/maintenance over the long term. Then, you also probably have check valves, and more and these don't last forever either.

There are a number of ways to achieve "no waiting for hot water", and you should explore them all. There's not a whole lot of water down the drain waiting in the system you have, and you may be spending a lot of effort engineering a system to save very little water. If you cobble something together, be ready to remove it all if you sell the house...buyers and inspectors don't like to see these home-brew systems on a somewhat essential home system.

I get your points, and simplifying what I have is one motivating factor. But, there are costs associated with pumping the water, treating it and heating it. No water softener, which might be a good idea, but do chlorinate/de-cholorinate for odor and (false?) sense of security for pathogens.

Is it "economical"? Trying to run those numbers is a bit daunting.

Anyway, it is more the time waiting for the tap to deliver hot water that is the issue, for me. That can run over a minute at the furthest tap, without recirc running, and that gets annoying when just wanting to do a quick hand wash or coffee cup rinse.

I'd be interested in hearing about other solutions. The only type I have seen are those tiny electric under sink units that do not appeal to me for various reasons. So it seemed re-circulation was the solution for me.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

Yes, waiting for hot water is a PIA. "First world problems" however, as my daughter would indicate.

The waiting for hot water is a problem, and it's caused by cheap builders and plumbers. Every home should have a hot water return line; the cost to do this while a home is being built is negligible; so low as to be a joke. When you have that line in place all kinds of things are possible. When you don't, adding it is almost impossible w/o tearing apart walls--costly and invasive. Builders and plumbers save a few bucks by not running this pipe. Today, it's even laughable as PEX cost is pennies a foot, very low cost compared to copper.

They do have a number of purpose built hot water recirculation systems, but to me anything with a pump is just more cost and trouble. I think some of those dedicated systems are not appropriate for tankless systems, since you'd end up running the tankless either all the time, or it would not come on since the recirculation flow would not be enough to turn it on...

Of course switching to a conventional tank would open up the possibilities.

When my new home was built in 1992 (alas sold in 2019) the plumber, by his choice alone ("you don't want to wait for hot water now, do you?") added a return line from the upstairs master bath, the furthest fixtures from the hot water tank in the basement. The basement location of the heater, and the upstairs origin of the return line allowed a no-pump thermosiphon recirculation system. No waiting.

I compare that forward thinking plumber (thank goodness for him) to the electricians; they put the GFCI outlets in the bathrooms by code, but then ran hundreds of extra feet of NM cable through walls, attics, ceilings, etc. to get to outlets outside! Why? To save $5 (1992 cost) on another GFCI outlet for the outside outlets. I still shake my head on that one.

Good luck with your tinkering on this project!

 

[joe99]

Yes, waiting for hot water is a PIA. "First world problems" however, as my daughter would indicate.

The waiting for hot water is a problem, and it's caused by cheap builders and plumbers. Every home should have a hot water return line; the cost to do this while a home is being built is negligible; so low as to be a joke. When you have that line in place all kinds of things are possible. When you don't, adding it is almost impossible w/o tearing apart walls--costly and invasive. Builders and plumbers save a few bucks by not running this pipe. Today, it's even laughable as PEX cost is pennies a foot, very low cost compared to copper.

They do have a number of purpose built hot water recirculation systems, but to me anything with a pump is just more cost and trouble. I think some of those dedicated systems are not appropriate for tankless systems, since you'd end up running the tankless either all the time, or it would not come on since the recirculation flow would not be enough to turn it on...

Of course switching to a conventional tank would open up the possibilities.

When my new home was built in 1992 (alas sold in 2019) the plumber, by his choice alone ("you don't want to wait for hot water now, do you?") added a return line from the upstairs master bath, the furthest fixtures from the hot water tank in the basement. The basement location of the heater, and the upstairs origin of the return line allowed a no-pump thermosiphon recirculation system. No waiting.

I compare that forward thinking plumber (thank goodness for him) to the electricians; they put the GFCI outlets in the bathrooms by code, but then ran hundreds of extra feet of NM cable through walls, attics, ceilings, etc. to get to outlets outside! Why? To save $5 (1992 cost) on another GFCI outlet for the outside outlets. I still shake my head on that one.

Good luck with your tinkering on this project!

Thanks.

You have triggered my curiosity. I had never given "thermosiphon" any consideration. So, this worked acceptably in your previous house? Not doubting your word, just checking I understood correctly.

Since I have a recirc line now, with a small 5 gallon tank already in the system ("cold sandwich" overkill), tsurely if I could simply eliminate the pump (perhaps with some changes to pipe run) that would be the simplest way to go.

Actually, I probably still need the recirc pump to keep the tank up to temperature. I will need to think and sketch that out, but it is still an intrigued by the idea.

 

[Mitchell-DIY-Guy]

You have triggered my curiosity. I had never given "thermosiphon" any consideration. So, this worked acceptably in your previous house? Not doubting your word, just checking I understood correctly.

Worked like a charm...for 27 years with not a bit of maintenance or issue... Seek out my other posts, some others have asked about this (seems hot water recirculation is a very common topic). Thermosiphon requires a couple of key features to work. First, your furthest point of use must be higher than your source of hot water; you must have a "head" to use pump terminology. You must put the return back into your hot water tank through a swing check valve. That's it. The flow is slow. It's science at work!

 

[Diehard]

Depending on the rate of flow, some may be concerned with the so-called standby loss. In which case, insulation would be a big plus.
I think it's a great approach though.