Water Heater Replacement

So I have a home warranty and my water heater started leaking. Not a lot, but the drip tray had a bit of standing water. It was hot water, so I assumed the tank was leaking. I called the warranty company, they assigned a plumber and he came out and said it needed replacement. A couple of hours later I received a call from the warranty company approving the replacement, but then said the plumber needs to bring it "up to code" by adding a pop off valve, which would cost an additional $230. I told the person from the warranty company that I had an existing pop off valve and that I thought a new water heater would come with one. Was I wrong to assume this? I have had mostly good luck with this warranty company but in the two times I have had plumbing issues, the contracted plumbers always seem to have extras tacked on that I have to pay out of pocket. Does this sound reasonable? The company is contacting the plumber on Monday to ask about the valve and will get back with me. Any help would be appreciated.

Water heaters come with a temperature and pressure (T&P) relief valve in the box. It's part of a standard installation. Now they may also be talking about a thermal expansion valve and not a T&P valve on the tank. Codes may require thermal expansion protection and if you don't already have anything on the plumbing system the plumber may need to install a thermal expansion tank or valve. They need to be more specific on what is required (pop-off valve is too vague) and post some pics of your current tank and surrounding piping.

Caduceus said:

Water heaters come with a temperature and pressure (T&P) relief valve in the box. It's part of a standard installation.

Now they may also be talking about a thermal expansion valve and not a T&P valve on the tank.

Codes may require thermal expansion protection and if you don't already have anything on the plumbing system the plumber may need to install a thermal expansion tank or valve.

They need to be more specific on what is required (pop-off valve is too vague) and post some pics of your current tank and surrounding piping.

Click to expand...

...interesting...

Can you review this thread- http://www.doityourself.com/forum/w...xpansion-tank-vs-thermal-expansion-valve.html

...and comment on the purpose of the valve?

Is it used with an expansion tank or in lieu of?

Learn something new everyday...

Caduceus said:

Water heaters come with a temperature and pressure (T&P) relief valve in the box. It's part of a standard installation. Now they may also be talking about a thermal expansion valve and not a T&P valve on the tank. Codes may require thermal expansion protection and if you don't already have anything on the plumbing system the plumber may need to install a thermal expansion tank or valve. They need to be more specific on what is required (pop-off valve is too vague) and post some pics of your current tank and surrounding piping.

Click to expand...

Let's see if this works.

KULTULZ said:

...interesting...

Can you review this thread- http://www.doityourself.com/forum/w...xpansion-tank-vs-thermal-expansion-valve.html

...and comment on the purpose of the valve?

Is it used with an expansion tank or in lieu of?

Learn something new everyday...

Click to expand...

A thermal expansion tank for your water heater acts as a cushion for the expansion that takes place when water is heated, the thermal expansion valve simply relieves the pressure by letting some water out of the system. They both independently serve the same purpose so having one or the other should suffice.
The T&P valve on the water heater shown in your picture is a separate safety device that is required to be installed on the tank.

Caduceus said:

A thermal expansion tank for your water heater acts as a cushion for the expansion that takes place when water is heated, the thermal expansion valve simply relieves the pressure by letting some water out of the system. They both independently serve the same purpose so having one or the other should suffice.
The T&P valve on the water heater shown in your picture is a separate safety device that is required to be installed on the tank.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Couple of questions. Could the warranty people have meant the thermal expansion valve instead of pressure relief valve? Is the thermal extension valve becoming code in many places? It may be the warranty people got confused and the plumber actually told them a thermal expansion valve was code and needed to be installed. If that's the case, I assume I can verify local code. Also, do water heaters come with a pressure relief valve? Thanks so much for the info.

Caduceus said:

Water heaters come with a temperature and pressure (T&P) relief valve in the box. It's part of a standard installation. Now they may also be talking about a thermal expansion valve and not a T&P valve on the tank. Codes may require thermal expansion protection and if you don't already have anything on the plumbing system the plumber may need to install a thermal expansion tank or valve. They need to be more specific on what is required (pop-off valve is too vague) and post some pics of your current tank and surrounding piping.

Click to expand...

I think your questions have been answered in this response.

Davery5872 said:

Could the warranty people have meant the thermal expansion valve instead of pressure relief valve? Is the thermal extension valve becoming code in many places? It may be the warranty people got confused and the plumber actually told them a thermal expansion valve was code and needed to be installed. If that's the case, I assume I can verify local code.

Also, do water heaters come with a pressure relief valve? Thanks so much for the info.

Click to expand...

If you are paying for the valving in question, you need to get a detailed quote from the plumber as to how and why (IMO). Does the warranty company only use this one plumber in your area?

I am only a amateur but all of the WH's I have bought (GE - SMITH) have the T&P valve installed in the unit.

So here was I found online concerning local code. "all storage water heaters operating above atmospheric pressure shall be provided with an approved, self closing (levered) pressure relief valve and temperature relief valve or a combination thereof. The relief valve shall conform to ANSA Z21.22. The relief valve shall not be used as a means to control thermal expansion".

This is the only time the word "thermal" appears in the code. I know what a pressure relief valve is, what is a temperature relief valve? Is it the same as a thermal expansion valve? If not, would you conclude a thermal expansion valve is not required by code from reading this? Is there another name for a thermal expansion valve? Thanks.

Davery5872 said:

So here was I found online concerning local code.

"all storage water heaters operating above atmospheric pressure shall be provided with an approved, self closing (levered) pressure relief valve and temperature relief valve or a combination thereof. The relief valve shall conform to ANSA Z21.22. The relief valve shall not be used as a means to control thermal expansion".

This is the only time the word "thermal" appears in the code. I know what a pressure relief valve is, what is a temperature relief valve? Is it the same as a thermal expansion valve? If not, would you conclude a thermal expansion valve is not required by code from reading this? Is there another name for a thermal expansion valve?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

-THERMAL EXPANSION EXPLAINED - CLICK HERE-

Shown below is a T&P (temperature and pressure relief) valve. A pressure relief (only) valve is also shown.

Quote from WATTS website describing T&P valve-

http://www.watts.com/pages/support/tp.asp?catId=64

Temperature and pressure (T&P) relief valves used on residential water heaters are typically designed and manufactured to relieve on pressure at 150 psig and on temperature at 210 degrees F. These ASME, ANSI and CSA (AGA) approved relief valves protect the water heater from excess pressures and temperatures by discharging water.

Click to expand...

THERMAL EXPANSION is also discussed in the website.

Thermal expansion is controlled by a expansion control tank or possibly a pressure relief valve (water pressure only) or combination of both (local code).

-EXPANSION TANK EXPLANATION -CLICK HERE-

frodo...



The valve shown on the WH supply line is a pressure release (system) valve and not a vent, correct? Or do I need further tutoring?



THANX for the additional text. That book is expensive!

here is the text,,,got busy,,took me awhile..

I found this.


http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/Flori...stribution.pdf

Section 607.3

Thermal expansion control. A means of controlling increased pressure caused by thermal expansion shall be provided where required in accordance with Sections 607.3.1 and 607.3.2.

607.3.1 Pressure reducing valve. For water service system sizes up to and including 2 inches (51 mm), a device for controlling pressure shall be installed where, because of thermal expansion, the pressure on the downstream side of a pressure reducing valve exceeds the main supply pressure. A pressure reducing valve with an integral bypass check valve or other device shall be installed to this requirement.

607.3.2 Backflow prevention device or check valve. Where a backflow prevention device, check valve or other device is installed on a water supply system utilizing storage water heating equipment such that thermal expansion causes an increase in pressure, a device for controlling pressure shall be installed.


" For water service system sizes up to and including 2 inches". Does that mean up to a 2" supply line?

"the pressure on the downstream side of a pressure reducing valve exceeds the main supply pressure".

I don't have a clue to what this means. Anyone?

down stream is the water on the house side of the PRV valve.

so, if the pressure on the HOUSE side exceeds the pressure from the city system.

example....city pressure is ...40 psi

your pressure on your system is 50....because you have a pump running. or expansion tank installed

then the psi on the down stream side is greater than the upstream.....


YES, up to and including 2''...supply line refers to the incoming water from city meter

frodo said:

down stream is the water on the house side of the PRV valve.

so, if the pressure on the HOUSE side exceeds the pressure from the city system.

example....city pressure is ...40 psi

your pressure on your system is 50....because you have a pump running. or expansion tank installed

then the psi on the down stream side is greater than the upstream.....


YES, up to and including 2''...supply line refers to the incoming water from city meter

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Stupid question of the day coming. If the pressure in my system is greater than the pressure in the cities system, how does the water flow into my system?

I talked with people at the county today. They said the only time a thermal expansion tank or valve is required is new construction and when there is a closed system. I can't see a backflow valve in the water heater area. Could a backflow valve be somewhere else?

you have to understand thermal expansion in theory thermal expansion is suppose to be able to go back through regulator and back into city. but if city pressure is higher than your expansion it can not do this. the code states on a closed system but it will not hurt to install one anyway. make sure you mount it on cold side after ball valve and check valve and set pressure in tank to same pressure as house

Your company is lying to you in order to inflate the profit to the plumber. The plumber is probably lying to them too. All residential water heaters come with a factory installed T&P valve since a court ruling in the 1990s. Only speciality commercial heaters may require the addition of a >$15 valve. Call the plumbing company on their BS. Get your local inspector's opinion if necessary too.

SHR said:

Your company is lying to you in order to inflate the profit to the plumber. The plumber is probably lying to them too. All residential water heaters come with a factory installed T&P valve since a court ruling in the 1990s. Only speciality commercial heaters may require the addition of a >$15 valve. Call the plumbing company on their BS. Get your local inspector's opinion if necessary too.

Click to expand...

I don't think it is the warranty company, they have no idea what local code is. I do think you are right about the plumber. The warranty company told me (don't know if it's true) that they are paying the plumber $322 for parts and labor to replace the heater. The going rate in the area is $700. The question is IF I can get the plumber install without the thermal expansion valve, do I want a lying plumber to do the work?

I talked with the plumber today. I tried to give him an "out". I told him since he does not regularly do business in this county he may not know the code and then told him the county inspector told me a thermal expansion valve was not required. The plumber said "if you want us to install the water heater we are going to install the thermal expansion valve and it will cost you $230". End of discussion. So I take my "buy out" on this claim from the warranty company (which won't even cover half the cost), cancel the warranty and find my own plumber.