Need advice on new pressure tank and maybe cycle valves

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New2Wellz

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Charlottesville, VA
Hi, folks.

I just joined today, primarily to ask these questions, although I posted pics of a water softener I recently installed in the Projects forum. And I'm sure I'll be doing other projects in the future.

My pressure tank is going bad so I am going to replace it.

I pressurized it when I moved in in 2010. It was good until it lost pressure last February, then again in June, and then again today. It seems that it's on a half-life decay.

I have two questions. I looked to see if these had been addressed elsewhere in this forum but found nothing. If they have, please direct me to those threads.

1) Is there an advantage to installing a larger tank than I currently have?

2) While I am doing this, should I install one of those valves that reduces pump cycles?


I have very little data with which to work. I have no idea how deep my well is or any data on the pump. I went to the county to get whatever data they had, and everything says "Missing Driller's Report." I am having a hard time tracking down the driller to see if he has any information that might be of benefit.

I am in a single story home, 3 bedrooms, 1 and 1/2 baths.

Right now I am the only occupant, but I would like to make certain I address future capacity should I sell.

The tank has a 30/50 switch. The plumbing was upgraded to PEX.

Question 1: My existing tank is FloTec FP7100-08. 6 gallons/15 equivalent. Will I gain anything by installing a larger tank, or should I just get another one of these?

Question 2: I see valves that are supposed to reduce pump cycles. Without getting into specific manufacturers (or please do it that's OK here), what is the general opinion of these? Intuitively it seems to me that the less on/off I subject the pump to, the longer it will last. Since I am going to be putting in a new tank, now would be the time to install one of these products if they are effective.

Thanks for the input.
 
It would be beneficial to know what you have as far as the well goes. But you can get by.

Is it a submersible pump or jet pump?
 
Hey, Matt30.

It is a submersible.

And I agree, I would LOVE to know the details on my well. I'm a little disappointed that the county did not follow up to get the final report, but I also derive the benefit of being a landowner in an area that has "casual authority."
 
Without knowing if it's a 1\2 hp or 3/4 or 1hp, I would have to 20 gallon pressure tank set at 24 psi. That's more then enough to satisfy your home.
 
Thank you, Matt.

Let me ask, since I am a homeowner and not a plumber: since I have a 30/50 switch, why would I have the tank at 24psi and not at 27 or 28? I thought that it was a universal that the pressure was set nearer the kick-in pressure.

Also, do you have any experience with these valves that are supposed to reduce pump cycles? As I said, since I'm going to be taking things apart I may as well get everything done at once.

Thanks, again.

appended later: After reading and thinking about it, let me see if I understand why you made your recommendation. The lower pressure of 24 psi will still be sufficient for my house and will leave room for more water in the tank, thus reducing my cycle time without installing a special valve to accomplish this.

Is this the general idea?
 
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New pumps, general rule of thumb is 2 psi below the cut in pressure.

People may disagree with me here. But I have grown to set the air pressure at 24 psi when I am dealing with an older pump. As everyone knows, something that is 10 years old doesn't quite have the same force right out of the box. An older plumber who masters in pumps suggested I do this to ease the work load on the pump. It's what all his employees do. Theory was there's less pressure pushing back on the pump, and still enough to satisfy the house without noticing drops in pressure.

So I tried it, and sure enough the running amperes were lower, and I've just been doing it ever since.
 
Interesting.

Thanks for the reply! If I don't like it I can always add more air. But being a single guy, I can't shower while doing dishes.

I've been going through the forum reading posts to get myself up to speed on my system. Our conversation has motivated me to push harder on getting specifics for my well and pump. Shooting in the dark like this is not the way to do things...I appreciate your willingness to give advice with the minimal data at hand.
 
No problem. Thats why we're here. But when your pump fails and it needs to be replaced it makes the process 10X easier when you know at least the well depth. Ive gone as far as to tie one of my pipe wrenches (an older spare of course) to a rope and drop it down to the bottom of the well to measure it.
 
There are easy ways to figure the size of your pump. If it has a control box, the horsepower will be printed on the tag at the bottom of the box. If it is a two wire pump without a control box, it has to be 1.5 HP or smaller. If it runs on 115 volt instead of 230 volts, then it is no larger than 1/2HP.

If none of this is possible, then a clip around amp meter will tell you how many amps it is drawing. On 230V, 5 amps is 1/2HP, 7 amps is 3/4HP, and 9 amps is 1HP.

Now once you figure out the horsepower of the pump, a bucket test will tell you what size pump it has and how deep it is to water. Run as many hoses as you have at the same time, or cut the pipe so you can get the max flow at the lowest pressure.

If it is a 1/2HP and produces 10 GPM, then it is pumping from 170’. If it is a 1HP and is pumping 15 GPM, it is pumping from about 200’, and so on.

I doubt that it is a very large pump because of the size of tank. A 20 gallon size pressure tank only holds about 5 gallons of water and is not big enough to reduce the cycling, even with a very small pump.

You would be much better off with a Cycle Stop Valve and a 4.5 gallon tank (1 gallon draw) than using a much larger tank. This CSV and 4.5 gallon tank is all you need for pumps up to 2HP that produce up to 25 GPM. It works just as well with a 10 GPM, 1/2HP, which is what I expect yours is.

The CSV stops the cycling and makes the water go past, not into the pressure tank. So it doesn’t matter if it is a 1 gallon or a million gallon tank. The CSV will deliver stronger pressure in the house, make the pump last longer, and costs considerably less than even fairly small pressure tanks. The Pside-Kick kit has everything you need to replace that tank.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRrJ9AAe7GM[/ame]
 
Thanks, Valveman.

I had looked at your products about a year or so ago. Now that I need to replace my tank, I am considering buying a CSV. That's why I signed up to this forum...to see what plumbers think about the product.

When I signed up I did not realize that someone from your business was a member. And I believe another member here also sells similar products. I’ve read tons of threads in the Wells & Pumps group and not only learned a lot, but also noticed that there are several vendor members.

If publicly discussing products or potential sales is an issue here (terms of service, uncomfortable exchanges, etc), I trust the mods will lock this thread and we can go offline with it.



That being said:

My pump is 220v.
There is no control box.
I have no amp-probe. But Sears just sent me a "we miss you" coupon...I think I just found a use for it!:D
I have a 30/50 switch.
My water hardness is 125mg/l (or 13 grains)…I say this for potential valve clogging issues.

When I take the system apart, I will measure the output directly from the well, just because the data will be good to have. And maybe I’ll install an electrical cut-off in the crawlspace next to the unit while I’m under there.


I have already received a tentative recommendation from your company to get the CSV-1A.

Do you need more data than I have given to be certain of the appropriate model, or does this unit cover a range of applications that mine is certain to fall within?

Also, won’t a larger tank reduce cycles more than a 4.5 gallon tank for small-volume uses, even with the csv in place? If I can reduce pump cycles for toilet flushing/hand washing by a factor of 3-5 by going to a 20 gallon tank (actual, not equivalent), then the cost differential is certainly worth it. Honestly, for all of my reading, I am kind of fuzzy on this subject of tank sizing and how the tank size and pump cut-in pressure relate to system efficiency and pressure delivered at the faucets.

Thanks for the assist.
 
Without a CSV you can’t put in a large enough tank to stop the cycling. A 20 gallon size only holds 5 gallons of water, a 60 gallon tank only about 12, and even a 119 gallon size tank only holds 35 gallons. With a house that uses 500 gallons per day or more, that is a lot of cycling just to refill a big tank. And have you seen how much those big tanks cost?

With a CSV any tank larger than a 4.5 gallons size (1 gallon of water) is a waste of money, space, and heat. It doesn’t matter if the pump comes on every time you flush a toilet. How many times a day can a toilet be flushed anyway? What is important is that the pump stays running the entire time you are taking a shower, using a sprinkler, or any time water is used for extended periods, which is what a CSV makes it do. This takes out hundreds of cycles per day, so adding back in a few cycles for single toilet flushes doesn’t add up to enough cycling to need a larger tank.

Also with a CSV, when water is being used anywhere in or out of the house just before, right after, or during the same time a toilet is flushed, the pump does not see an extra cycle for the toilet. Even when a toilet is flushed multiple times in a row, you would have to wait 3 minutes between flushes to cause an extra cycle. Flush a toilet every 2 minutes and the CSV will just make the pump stay running continuously until you are finished flushing, even if you flush 100 times or more.

Of course you can use a CSV with as large a tank as you want. But after you see how the CSV works you will kick yourself for wasting all that money on a larger tank. As long as you are using more than 1 GPM, the CSV makes water go right past the tank, straight to the faucet(s) being used. It doesn’t matter if it is a 1 gallon or a million gallon tank.

With a CSV an 80 gallon size bladder tank is large enough for an entire city with 50,000 people, so you certainly don’t need one that large for a single house. In the past all you could do was install as large a tank as you could afford or had space for. With the CSV having proved itself for over 22 years now, that hasn’t been the case in a long time.

Big tank systems are outdated. You just as well use a horse and buggy instead of a car, or an old typewriter instead of a computer as to use a big tank instead of a CSV. Using a big tank WITH a CSV is like having a car pull the buggy you are still riding in.

The Pside-Kick kit with the CSV1A and the 4.5 gallon size tank will cycle the pump less and deliver stronger constant pressure than a room full of big expensive tanks, and is only a fraction of what a big tank cost.
 
Thanks for the info valveman! The CSV stops are not common at all here. Sounds like they should be!

No they are not very common there, but I have sent some CSV’s to Nova Scotia and many other parts of the world. I started advertising them on the Internet and suggesting them on forums when appropriate after I found out the large pump companies had labeled them a “disruptive product”.

CSV’s are a disruptive product because they make pumps last longer and use smaller pressure tanks. So you won’t find any pump manufacturers or even very many plumbers or pump guys who will speak the truth and tell you how well they work. It would greatly cut into their repeat business and profits.

A disruptive product is good for consumers. The CSV makes pumps last longer, delivers constant pressure to the house, and saves a lot of money. But you will have to do your own research because people in the pump industry will not tell you about them. With close to a million installed in the last 22 years the CSV has more than proven itself.

Oh yeah and there are a few companies who try to make a copy of the CSV. They are not an easy sell because these “other companies” do not really understand how pumps work, so they can’t explain how the valve works either. But they get a few sales by letting us do all the explaining, then saying they have a valve just like the CSV only cheaper. Later I get to talk to most of them when they figure out it maybe cheaper, but it isn’t “just like a CSV”.
 
Very interesting.

I had not known about this CSV option.

I assume that it works like an air pressure regulator.

It seems to adjust in the same way.

What happens to the extra water or pressure?

Does unused water go out through the drain hose?

Or does higher pressure back up at the pump?

If so, how high?

I know cycling is no good for a motor, but does the higher back pressure at the pump cause any harm or result in a higher amperage draw?

Thanks
 
There is no excess water being dumped anywhere. The CSV just holds higher backpressure on the pump to make it think it is in a deeper well, so it produces less water when you need less water.

Actually the higher backpressure is good for the pump. It makes it pull lower amps, not higher as most people might think. Lower amps means it runs cooler and requires less flow to remain cool.

The backpressure will only be as high as your pump can produce, less the depth to the static water level. In other words if your pump can produce 150 PSI and it is 115' (50 PSI) to the water level, then the backpressure before the CSV is only 100 PSI.

Cycling on/off is the worst thing you can do to a pump. Every on/off cycle shortens the pump/motor life. The Cycle Stop Valve has been making pumps last longer for 22 years now. This is why you haven't heard of it. The CSV is considered a "disruptive product" by pump manufacturers and many pump installers. It makes pumps last longer and greatly reduces the size of pressure tank needed. This is a good thing for the homeowner but "disruptive" to the pump industry. Because of this pump manufacturers will do anything to keep you from knowing about CSV's and will even try to make you think they are bad for the pump. This is getting harder to do since most of the pumps installed with CSV's 22 years ago are still working, long after the manufacturers thought they should have been replaced.

The principal of the CSV is sound no matter what size pump you have. With the CSV we only use a 4.5 gallon size tank for most houses, and we do entire cities without needing a water tower or huge pressure tanks.
 
The CSV is a good product and does save motors, but I'm still convinced that a larger tank used with a CSV will further reduce cycles. I have always said that with tanks "Bigger is always better". However I can sell you a constant pressure valve and a 42 gallon equivalent (20 gallon) for less than I can sell you a 120 gallon equivalent bladder tank.

Recently Lightning took out not only my pump, but the entire PVC well. It was a 5" well that had to be lined with 4" PVC because the driller got greedy and ran into a vein of sand. The lightning damaged the pump so that we couldn't move it up or down. With the new Galvanized 4" well, I went in with a 3" Grundfos which has a soft start which means I can cycle it as much as necessary.
 
Sure a larger tank used with a CSV will decrease the cycling even more, just not enough to make it worthwhile to spend extra money for a larger tank. The pump will have to start every time you begin using water like for a shower, no matter if the tank holds 1 gallon or 10 gallons. What is important is to keep the pump from cycling WHILE you are using water, which is what a CSV does.

Its OK for the pump to start when you begin a shower, you just don’t want the pump to cycle on/off a dozen times WHILE you take a shower. It doesn’t matter how small the tank is, the CSV will keep the pump running continuously for as long as the shower is on. As long as you are using water, the CSV makes the water flow right past the tank, straight to the faucet. So it doesn’t matter if it is a 1 gallon or a thousand gallon tank.

While it is flattering that there are several companies trying to copy the Cycle Stop Valve, you can buy a real CSV and a 4.5 gallon tank for less than the price of most tanks. With a real CSV you will have something that has been well proven for over 22 years now, which is why others try to copy it. I am sure other companies who make different brands of Constant Pressure Valves will eventually figure out the little tank is all that is needed. I don’t know why they haven’t already done this. It is plainly written in our explanations and instructions, which is where they got all their other ideas.
 
When I go to the sink to prepare a meal or wash dishes, I turn the faucet on and off many times. When I brush my teeth, I turn the faucets on and off several times. So with a much bigger tank, I could do these things all day without the pump coming on at all. I'm just not buying the small tank theory. The smallest tank I recommend with a cpv is a "20" or 42 gal equivalent.
 

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