Sand coming in from driven well

Hi

Signed up again......the account never recognized my old user name. Great to see the site is still running strong. My hello's to speedbump!

I have a sand point well......made in 2012. Good water and good quantity as well to this day. Johnson point.......8 slot........36" screen down approximately 22 feet from surface. Used as a recreational property.

Problem is I am getting some sand.....not much but noticeable in toilet tank bottom and when I drain the hot water tank at the end of the season. (late October). I am not getting much but you can see especially when the hot water tank spurts out its last gallon or two. Does this support us getting a in line water filter or perhaps one on the drinking fawcett only. I spoke to Johnson and they said going to a 6 slot won't make much of a difference and to expect some sand with a sand point well.

I realize as well that in line filter can be a PITA therefore . If I were to install one do I install it after the pump but before the tank?? or after the tank but before hot water tank?? I have attached two pictures. Thank you. Happy new year from Canada.

What was your username or was it Ton? I have talk with a lot of folks from Canada.
From what your saying; your not getting much sand. I agree with Johnson, going two thousands smaller with the screen probably won't make a difference. However, driven wells do not typically pump sand. Trust me, I have beaten lots of them in when I was younger.
As for the filter, it should go after the tank. I am not fond of in line filters, but if the sand is becoming a problem, that would be a cheap fix.
Another thing you might try is disconnecting the pipe from the pump that feeds the tank and connect another one the same size (1") and running it outside with the pump for as long as it takes to clear the well up. Pumping pulls the fines through the screen and allows the coarser material to build up around the screen which acts like a gravel pack. It should clear up completely if pumped long and hard. How long depends on your material. A couple of hours should be plenty. Run it into a bucket for several minutes and keep checking how much is in the bucket each time you slowly empty it. You should see the sand slowing down.

Thanks for the reply..........user name was Ton...you helped me out in 2012. I copied my log in info this time!!! To think of it I did run the pump for two hours (not bypassed like you mentioned) and it did improve the taste and I did not see sand after I ran it for two hours. The only place I see it is in the hot water tank and toilet tank. Could be from one I open up cottage in late winter and its down for approximately 4 months. It only gets used 6 to 7 weeks per year therefore the courser stuff may never get a chance to stay put on the point.

Given its little sand will it hurt the tank or pump? If not I think what I will do is install a under sink filter only so we don't drink sand. Thanks again.

I remember you now. I remember your username because of the two guys that used to do Garage Sales on TV several years ago. Ton was the guy with the tattoos on his head.
Once the larger particles are there, they won't move. The only place they have to go is into the screen. If they won't fit, they stay put. So letting it sit for months may be the cause. Not sure why though, never been down there to monitor these things.
Good luck.

Hi Again Rob. Just an update. I opened up the cabin after being shut down for 5 months. Why I don't know (4 feet of snow.....I should be heading south to florida and not punished myself!) I bypassed the plumbing as you suggested before the pressure tank so I can pump water outside to clean up the well. I saw some sand come out but it soon cleared up. I got a new problem that is somewhat old. Couple years back I pulled my point out and installed deeper to give more water because at this time of year the lake drops 3.5 to 4 FOW and it affects the water table. Of note my point is down 22 feet. Water table starts at 15 feet. I got a 3 foot point made by johnson number 8 slot stainless. (great point no signs of blockage yet) I got about 4 feet of water that surpasses the top of the point at peak season. (July) Here is what occurred this past week;

Primed pump got the water to come up. Pressure held at pump and after the pump. No air leaks after the presure tank.

After pressure dropped to 20 lbs the pump kicked in but it would struggle to bring water up. I took the priming plug out and there was air in the system. It only took 1 and 2 quarts of water only to re prime. When I started drawing water by passing the system on a continuous run of the pump I had plenty of water with no signs of shortages. ( I have drawn whatever water was left in it) When I shut it down with a full charge than same problem would reappear...lack of water and taking in of air.

I don't believe I have a check value problem and the problem is related to less water in the welll than previous years. The ground is frozen and not taking water in and the lake is down considerably. I cannot pass the 23 foot mark for I got a hard layer. I tried and have driven it past 25 feet but I am not into the quick sand. I do not want to invest in a drilled well for all my neighbors have red high iron water and mine is clear cold and tested very well. How can I solve this problem. Shorter point? Pipe screen that is short.........? As well it takes me about 40 minutes to prime of jacuzzi shallow well pump. My water comes up 22 feet and I got a run of another 25 feet........I must drain in November due to freezing.......is there a simplier way.......self priming pump of some sort! Thank you.

Your total vertical lift isn't more than 25 feet is it? Or is it close to 25'? That is the maximum a shallow well jet pump can lift water. Your pump is self priming once you fill it with water as long as you leave the prime plug loose so the air can escape.

If you seem to get the air after the pump shuts off and has been off for quite a while, it could be an air leak on the screen side of the check valve. Once the pump shuts off, the line down to the screen is under vacuum. If there is a slight air leak, the water will run down trying to seek it's level while allowing the suction line to fill with air. Pump kicks on again, gets a big shot of air and has to re prime itself. The higher the vertical lift, the more critical this is.

Absolutely not deeper than 25'. total lift is 22.2 feet. If the first half foot of the point is exposed to air because the water table has dropped would this cause the water to run down?

At that depth, I don't think the screen being out of the water would give air. That and the fact that if the lake drops, this doesn't necessarily mean the ground water is dropping as well. They are probably connected but in sand water moves horizontally very slowly.

22.5' is a deep lift, the closer you get to 25' "Max" the harder it is to prime and keep primed. I have actually measured from the suction hole in the pump to the top of water in a shallow well. If it's 25', I couldn't get the pump to prime at all. You could feel the pipe getting cold as the pump drew it up, but it would stop a few feet short of the impeller. If it ever gets that critical, screw a Pitcher Pump into the top of the pump and start stroking the handle. That will usually get the water up into the pump.

sorry rob.......here is my dimensions again. so my lift is normally is 15 feet but now with the lake dropped its likely 18 feet or so! Again this happens only this time of year when the lake drops..........should i get a shorter point to make sure that point is in water all the time?

Pipe above surface/below ground 3
Pipe 5.7
Pipe 10.5
Point 3
Total feet of pipe including point 22.2
Water from ground level 14.5
feet of Water in pipe 7.7
Length of Point 3
Water over point 4.7

If you think the screen is giving air to the pump you can always drop the three quarter inch pipe all the way down the well and draw with that put it straight down into the screen.

Interesting will that draw in filtered water......it should. What do I do at pump.......my check valve is at the pump followed by a 1 1/4" poly pipe.

I don't know if we discussed the size of your well. I am assuming it's an 1-1/4". If it's a two inch, that would be much better. You could use larger pipe. The idea is to get the 3/4" or larger with the 2" down into the screen close to the bottom. This way, all the suction goes to the end of the 3/4" pipe eliminating drawing off the casing and possibly pulling air from the top 1' of screen. At the pump just bush down from the check valve from 1-1/4" to 3/4" and right on down the well.

Thanks Bob everything is 1 1/4"...........galvanized to 3 feet below ground.......tee installed and 1 1/4' poly coming into crawl space (run of 20 horizontal feet) . Well I have been thinking about a system that will allow me to pick up water water at the bottom on the well only. My only concern is your reducing the size of the intake line with what you propose. I mean 1" wouldn't be a bad I idea how I would curl that into that T will be a challenge!!! If I can't figure this out its going to be a drilled well I guess. The dynamics will not change. 21.5 ft deep and and 6 feet of water at best in that pipe. The ideal is to get more clearance I guess.

How do casings work in shallow wells......one foot of gravel with a footvalve or mini screen (for a lack of better terms) that is placed above the gravel which will give me more clearance. Can footvalves be drained back for the winter without removing the foot valve

Or am I better to work the idea of using the well point as the casing with a pick up line located at bottom. Do i need some sort of pick up line screen?

If you could get 1" poly down into the screen, that would be great, but it would be so tight that it probably wouldn't go. Just a badly reamed joint would stop the poly. Yes, using 3/4" is going to restrict your flow and possibly cavitate the pump. But it's the only way to make it work with such a short column of water in the screen.

You couldn't use a footvalve down an 1-1/4" pipe. Even a 3/4" footvalve would probably hang up.

Draining things for winter simply makes for a much bigger challenge. Living in Florida, I don't have a lot of experience with the freezing thing.

Bob

Given the "short column of water" I got to start the whole thing over again which will be summer project.......I thinking you would do it this way if u used the blank paper approach to it>

use a point and screen as a casing
drive it down using 2" pipe. should be hard for a pilot hole is in place!
below surface 3 feet attach 2" poly bring to surface under crawl space
thread through a 1" poly or 1 1/4' may now fit......through it from bottom of well to pump connected to check value bushed down to 1" .

1. Do i need a screen at end of the pick up line ?
2. Would plugging of screen (time of) reduce using this system
3. Likely hood of picking up sand?

If the 1-1/4" was easy to drive, try a two inch screen (well point, same thing) and 2" galvanized casing. Tighten all joints with 24" wrenches and pipe cheaters so you butt the pipe together inside the couplings. This cuts down on air leaks a bunch and saves breaking off threads. The screen should be a Johnson 2" as is the casing. Once in place, you can drop 1-1/4" poly down with a footvalve on the bottom. (You may have to use a 1" footvalve to get it down). Take the poly right to the pump with as few joints as possible. You may also be able to go a little deeper than you are now. As long as it's driving pretty easy, your probably in the vein. If it gets hard again, STOP.

ok so i would follow the same procedure of cleaning the well point using a pitcher point when I get that 2" point down correct?

omit the check valve that is now installed at the pump?

what do i need do for water drain back for winterization for the foot valve will hold all tight?

is there way of capping that 2" galvanized pipe that is will be located under ground.........caulk or is there a fitting for it?

will be suction of that footvalve create enough draw to draw water into the point ?

ok so i would follow the same procedure of cleaning the well point using a pitcher point when I get that 2" point down correct? Pitcher Pump, yes or use the jet pump. Just pump as hard as you can until it's completely clear of sand.

omit the check valve that is now installed at the pump? With the footvlave yes.

what do i need do for water drain back for winterization for the foot valve will hold all tight? Yes, the footvalve will hold the water in the column. Draining back will be a real challenge. You can push a hose down the suction line and blow it out with air maybe.

is there way of capping that 2" galvanized pipe that is will be located under ground.........caulk or is there a fitting for it? Use a 2" well seal. You can find them on line. Try Dean Bennett Supply.

will be suction of that footvalve create enough draw to draw water into the point ? The footvalve does only one thing. Keeps the water from going back down. Like a diode, only allows flow in one direction. The pump will create the vacuum that will draw the water up.

I won't be back on line until later this afternoon.

Thank you. You have been great.

If the footvalve does one thing why not just use a check valve at the pump and have the poly open ended at the bottom of the well. No footvalve?

Where is the supply store for the site?

With the check valve at the pump, you open yourself up to all kinds of air problems. With the foot valve only, air problems disappear and the pump is always primed.

I had a Website that we sold well products from, but I sold it and it's now taken down. If you have trouble finding the items you need, PM me and I'll try to point you in the right direction.