Bar plumbing

I am being asked to provide a quote for a remodel for a bar area.

I have been involved in exactly one of these type (food handling areas) plumbing installations in the past, so I am no authority on this. But I do remember that the hand sink was drained indirectly. On the print I have been provided to bid from, the hand sink drainage is directly connected. Reading the relevant code section, I cannot see anything that requires indirect connection for a hand sink, so I am thinking that the plumbing drawings I have to work off of are correct. But seeing so many screwed up plumbing drawings in the past makes me concerned that maybe there is a code section relating to this that I am missing?

Edit to add: Do floor sinks require trap primers?

It depends. A few cities, well really the county health departments as they are the ones permitting food and beverage licenses, do require the hand sink to be indirect wasted. But in 30+ years I can remember only one or two jurestrictions that required them. None in florida that I recall.. Most though are fine with a hard piped drain on the hand sinks. Now glass wash sinks and dishwashers would be indirect via a floor sink. As would any food prep sinks.

For a large island bar, I have indirected wasted the hand sink where there wasn't a common wall to run the vent up

Floor sinks as a rule do not need trap primers as they should get enough water draining from normal day to day operation's in the typical kitchen or bar. Some health dept's, require floor drains to have trap primers.

Really some codes want trap primers on all floor drains. But others are not so strict. Most health inspectors do not require trap primers on kitchen / bar floors as the floors should be washed just about every day anyway.. Think Reno was one city that required trap primers on kitchen floor sinks, where as in vegas it was not required by the county.

Thanks, Beni.

There is a detail in the drawings showing a trap primer at floor drains, but the overall does not show floor drains, only floor sinks. Only concern there would be enough depth on the drain line to fit tees under the floor sinks.

That would be a problem.. Many floor sinks do come with a trap primer option "if specified". Oh I'm sure some engineers / designers would spec a trap primer on a floor sink. But you know, the whole reason for a floor sink is to collect waste off sinks and cooking equipment. I had to educate a few plumbing designers in my time. I've never specified a trap primer on a floor sink and I've done some of the largest kitchens in the world.

I love trap primers btw, There's a device that once installed, no one has a clue if its works or not. Oh I've tested some, but most I'm betting don't work after 6-12 months.

Sometimes the trap primer detail is part of the typical detail package a firm puts out. Sounds like RFI time...

I can give you what our local code requires. It's Allegheny County Article XV (15) plumbing code with IPC and IMC revisions added.
Hand sinks are to be directly connected to the drainage system and vented. Hand sinks will also have an accessible tempering valve for the hot water supply.
Floor drains will have trap primers that provide continuous or semi-continuous flow.
Floor sinks do not require trap primers. As Beni said, daily use of the fixture is adequate.
If you are installing a 3 compartment bar sink for glass washing (wash, sanitize then rinse) the drains will run individually from each compartment to the floor sink to prevent cross contamination of the basins in the event of a clog. You can also run individual traps for each compartment that connect to the same drain, but each basin's tailpiece must indirectly discharge into the traps.
I mentioned the tempering valves for hand sinks because they are sometimes missed and can be a surprise expense after inspection.
If a floor sink needs a primer, you may also be able to run an exposed copper line from a tee off of the cold supply of the fixture, since the floor sink will not be in an open area where it would pose a tripping hazard.
Hope some of this helps.

Great info. Pretty spot on with Michigan, although we're allowed to tie the three bowls together. We have also approved these drop in flappers for floor drains (commercial) that require a primer.
I've never had to use a tempering valve on a hand sink in a kitchen either, just the bathrooms. The hand sink can also tie in directly like a normal fixture.

Hand sinks in kitchens require temperrd water per health dept.95-105

stevep said:

Hand sinks in kitchens require temperrd water per health dept.95-105

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I've heard this for Michigan too, but have never been knocked down in a kitchen without one. Lol, I'm plumbing a commercial kitchen right now, watch me get flagged on it.

stevep said:

Hand sinks in kitchens require temperrd water per health dept.95-105

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This would only be a problem if you are serving the hand sink with the kitchen 140 degree water heater. Normal water heaters set to 120 serving hand sinks are fine and will not require any further tempering.

EEPlumber said:

This would only be a problem if you are serving the hand sink with the kitchen 140 degree water heater. Normal water heaters set to 120 serving hand sinks are fine and will not require any further tempering.

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You're not worried about legionaires disease? The bacteria grows in water heaters set below 140

stevemachine said:

You're not worried about legionaires disease? The bacteria grows in water heaters set below 140

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Steve, in most cases where a commercial kitchen and public bathroom sinks and a hand sink are involved there are two separate hot water lines. One comes directly from the water heater that is set above 140. The second line feeds the hand sink and bathroom sinks through a tempering valve.

stevemachine said:

You're not worried about legionaires disease? The bacteria grows in water heaters set below 140

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?? Majority of residential houses use 120 water heaters... Legionaries is a relatively new disease that first surfaced in the mid to late 70's. Basically a stronger form of pneumonia. Being that it's a bacteria, i seriously doubt it could with-stand 120 degree temps? (im no expert in the field i could be wrong) But, i never heard of that being a issue especially with so many people running 120 degree water heaters in their homes. Do you have a source to site?

johnjh2o said:

Steve, in most cases where a commercial kitchen and public bathroom sinks and a hand sink are involved there are two separate hot water lines. One comes directly from the water heater that is set above 140. The second line feeds the hand sink and bathroom sinks through a tempering valve.

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Yes, i've designed some like this aswell. Where the 140 line goes through a TMV then out to Lavs, handwash sinks, etc.

Well I'm no expert either. I know in Canada you are required by code to set water heaters at a minimum 140 degrees and use a mixing valve to temper water if necessary.

http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/legionnaires/faq.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2094925/

Steve the problem we have here is the manufacture of the water heaters set their thermostats at 120 degrees. Not sure but I think their reasoning is they don't want to be liable for scalding from hot water. We live in a country full of laws to protect us from ourself.

My professional opinion is when you have a question about local code, call your local inspector for a definite answer. All code is subject to interpretation and is left up to the jurisdiction with authority. You can get advice all day off of here and still fail. Plain and simple, call your inspector for your answer.

johnjh2o said:

Steve the problem we have here is the manufacture of the water heaters set their thermostats at 120 degrees. Not sure but I think their reasoning is they don't want to be liable for scalding from hot water. We live in a country full of laws to protect us from ourself.

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Fair enough, depends on the area. I know our heaters are preset to 140. But hey its difference in opinion really, depends on where you are. But that's like any code. I've just now realized after researching it more it's very controversial between setting it at 140 or 120. Downside to setting it at 140 is that's also when temporary hardness drops out. I guess they gives me some job security

I wanna play, too.
Here's my take on the issue. Hot water tanks should be set between 120 to 140 degrees F. Water for hand sinks and lave sinks in commercial settings need to be tempered to 95-105 degrees F. at the point of use. The rest of the building can remain at the 120-140 range.
Residential is the same at 120-140 for the tank and only the bath and shower water needs to be tempered at the point of use.
Legionella can enter the lungs through aspiration when showering/bathing and even when drinking water (rarely, but still possible).
Enjoy this link. It has a chart on it showing how the bacteria responds to temperature.
Legionnaires isn't necessarily a new disease. It was only after the outbreak at the Legionnaire's conference that the bacterium was nailed down to a specific type. It was simply diagnosed as pneumonia before that. The way that the bacteria exists in water is also unique compared to others. It lives symbiotically in paramecia, amoebas and other microorganisms, not freely in water for long periods of time. This gives it added protection from disinfectants so temperature is a second line of defense against them. Once the host has been destroyed a hot water or storage tank can be a perfect environment to proliferate. Chloramine is becoming more common in water treatment for that reason. Chlorine quickly dilutes in large water systems, but is more effective. Chloramine is not as effective, but maintains stability for longer than chlorine does and can reach further into public water systems. There also has to be a concentration high enough to overwhelm the body's natural defenses, as with most bacteria and viruses.
BTW, that first notable outbreak was not caused by the hot water system. It was from the standing water in the ventilation that 'misted' the bacteria into the air for all to breathe.
Link:
http://www.engr.psu.edu/iec/abe/topics/legionnaires.asp

Interesting read. So i guess based on the chart, the slow death range is between 120-140. So i think I could agree that 120-140 is best. If there's no small children or elderly people living there then it's probably safest to set at 140 but you can get away with going slightly above 120 with small children in the house to help prevent scalding.

Michigan is no more than 140 degrees untempered. Anything requiring tempering, (tub/shower valves, whirlpools, public hand sinks) are to be less than 120. I just plumbed a commercial kitchen and didn't use tempering valves at the hand sinks. It passed the plumbing and health department inspections.

DetroitRob said:

Michigan is no more than 140 degrees untempered. Anything requiring tempering, (tub/shower valves, whirlpools, public hand sinks) are to be less than 120. I just plumbed a commercial kitchen and didn't use tempering valves at the hand sinks. It passed the plumbing and health department inspections.

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Exact same in alberta. Max at a shower valve is 120 for us.