Chemical Feed Volume

Update: I added a few gallons of water in the black bucket, threw in some Potassium Permanganate and ran a recharge Sunday afternoon. Monday morning it may be crazy but the smell from the one faucet seems improved if not cured. Rejoice! But not so fast!
Four hours after the recharge I saw the water in the toilets start to go dingey, like lots of minerals in it. The water in all faucets has no smell and tastes ok from the ones I tested. But the water in the bowls is definitely a shade of very very week tea. Is it possible now that by finally running Potassium permanganate in one recharge that the media is starting to release some of the iron but needs a few more flushes after not getting cleaned for (I don't even know) how long? Maybe the iron filter just needs a couple more recharges. Sound possible?
I almost see the finish line!

Yes, just dump it in. There should be a little bit of water over the top of the white foam pad. The feeders come in 2 and 4 ounce. At least the ones I have used. In other words, they will use 2 or 4 ounces of PP with each back wash. The amount of water that is in the tank is what determines the amount of PP that is used. When the unit is in service position, the PP is dissolved. The unit back washes then draws the PP down through the mineral bed and the PP sticks to the resin. Then there is a final rinse to get rid of any excess purple water. The last zone is the PP tank refill. The unit will put just enough water back into the tank to dissolve two or four more ounces of PP. Then we start all over again.

The reason the PP sticks to the resin is so it can oxidize the iron as it passes down through the tank. The iron once oxidized can then be trapped by the mineral.

gregp553 said:

Update: I added a few gallons of water in the black bucket, threw in some Potassium Permanganate and ran a recharge Sunday afternoon. Monday morning it may be crazy but the smell from the one faucet seems improved if not cured. Rejoice! But not so fast!

Four hours after the recharge I saw the water in the toilets start to go dingey, like lots of minerals in it. The water in all faucets has no smell and tastes ok from the ones I tested. But the water in the bowls is definitely a shade of very very week tea. Is it possible now that by finally running Potassium permanganate in one recharge that the media is starting to release some of the iron but needs a few more flushes after not getting cleaned for (I don't even know) how long? Maybe the iron filter just needs a couple more recharges. Sound possible?

I almost see the finish line!

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By never having been properly treated (unknown) by the solution tank, the iron filter media is most likely loaded with iron. The PP most likely shook some excess loose causing the discoloration and most likely the filter media has been compromised (from not being renewed on a regular basis) (and the excess iron/particulates not having been removed by either the WS or post carbon filter).

The PP amount added to the tank should be in proportion the cu. ft. of the filter media, meaning you can overdue the initial dosage.

But what gets me from all of this is why is the IF is plumbed after the WS? And there is no solution tank to clean the WS brine tank (or filter media) after it initially is trapping iron.

Anyways good luck with it...

Update: I added a few gallons of water in the black bucket, threw in some Potassium Permanganate and ran a recharge Sunday afternoon. Monday morning it may be crazy but the smell from the one faucet seems improved if not cured. Rejoice! But not so fast!
Four hours after the recharge I saw the water in the toilets start to go dingey, like lots of minerals in it. The water in all faucets has no smell and tastes ok from the ones I tested. But the water in the bowls is definitely a shade of very very week tea. Is it possible now that by finally running Potassium permanganate in one recharge that the media is starting to release some of the iron but needs a few more flushes after not getting cleaned for (I don't even know) how long? Maybe the iron filter just needs a couple more recharges. Sound possible?
I almost see the finish line!

Click to expand...

I didn't see this post before my last post. Weird!
A couple of gallons was probably way too much water. The unit probably used all that was available and put the proper amount of water back in toward the end of the back wash cycle. You probably shook things up, like Kultulz said. It should all go back to normal after some water usage.

speedbump said:

I didn't see this post before my last post. Weird!
A couple of gallons was probably way too much water. The unit probably used all that was available and put the proper amount of water back in toward the end of the back wash cycle. You probably shook things up, like Kultulz said. It should all go back to normal after some water usage.

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I put enough water in to cover the PP (and the pad) by a couple of inches. There's an overflow so you can only go a few more inches above that. I was surprised to see that after the recharge cycle, there was no water showing above the PP on the pad. I refilled the water to just above the PP and the pad and I'm going to run another recharge tonight to see if I can get the water to clean up. I think I'm making progress.
Thanks for all the input.

KULTULZ said:

By never having been properly treated (unknown) by the solution tank, the iron filter media is most likely loaded with iron. The PP most likely shook some excess loose causing the discoloration and most likely the filter media has been compromised (from not being renewed on a regular basis) (and the excess iron/particulates not having been removed by either the WS or post carbon filter).

The PP amount added to the tank should be in proportion the cu. ft. of the filter media, meaning you can overdue the initial dosage.

But what gets me from all of this is why is the IF is plumbed after the WS? And there is no solution tank to clean the WS brine tank (or filter media) after it initially is trapping iron.

Anyways good luck with it...

Click to expand...

Thanks, that's my hope.
Regarding the IF after the water softener, will the water softener media actually trap iron? If yes, then you're right, not sure it would get cleaned except my adding cleaner (which I did Saturday).
Thanks for all the input.

Unless the unit isn't working correctly, the entire back wash cycle should take PP out and add water back at the end of the cycle. You don't necessarily have to see the water for it to be working.

speedbump said:

Unless the unit isn't working correctly, the entire back wash cycle should take PP out and add water back at the end of the cycle. You don't necessarily have to see the water for it to be working.

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There's something about the process I'm not clear on, either the correct level of water or how often to add PP. Do you just pour the PP powder on top of the felt pad and the system raises the water level high enough to mix some? Is that how it works? Your previous post said put in water a little above the pad but when it ended the water level was below the pad. Sorry, I have to ask these stupid questions to know if my system is working correctly.
Thanks Speedbump

gregp553 said:

There's something about the process I'm not clear on, either the correct level of water or how often to add PP. Do you just pour the PP powder on top of the felt pad and the system raises the water level high enough to mix some? Is that how it works?

Your previous post said put in water a little above the pad but when it ended the water level was below the pad.

Sorry, I have to ask these stupid questions to know if my system is working correctly.

Thanks Speedbump

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They are certainly not stupid questions. All are based on a NEED TO KNOW basis and you certainly need to know.

The dingey water resolved itself in a day and the smell in one faucet is not completely gone but is improved. Ran another recharge last night and I'll just keep at it. I'm kinda wingin' it on the water and PP level in the feeder but I found a new diagram of a feeder system online last night and feel good about it. Thanks for all the help.

gregp553 said:

Regarding the IF after the water softener, will the water softener media actually trap iron? If yes, then you're right, not sure it would get cleaned except my adding cleaner (which I did Saturday).

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Yes, the media will trap iron, either too little or to the point of fouling the media, depending on how the system was designed by the manufacturer.

Below Sourced From- http://www.apswater.com/article.asp?id=26&title=Removing_Iron_and_Manganese_In_Water

Water softeners can remove a limited amount of dissolved iron from your water. Softeners do this because iron likes to stick on to the surfaces of ion exchange resin. A standard water softener contains ion exchange resin that will allow it to remove iron if the level is less than 4 ppm. A special fine mesh resin softener contains smaller bead sizes which give iron more places to stick. Fine mesh Water Softeners can remove dissolved iron up to 10 ppm. As the resin is regenerated the iron is flushed off the surface of the resin and sent to the drain. The addition of an inexpensive resin cleaner will assure more complete Iron removal and will give you extended life of the resin beads.

One of the disadvantages of depending on ion exchange for iron and manganese removal is precipitation by oxygen. Some of the precipitate becomes tightly bound to the exchange resin and over time reduces the exchange capacity by plugging pores and blocking exchange sites. If iron bacteria are present, the problem is even worse. Also, if suspended particles of insoluble forms of iron or manganese are present in the water prior to softening, they will be filtered out on the resin and cause plugging.

Suspended iron and manganese should be filtered out before water enters the softener.

A clogged water softener can be cleaned by acid regeneration if the unit is made to withstand acid corrosion. The manufacturer should be consulted before this is attempted. The problem with iron bacteria can be eliminated by chlorinating (Refer to the Chlorination circular in the Treatment Systems for Household Water Supplies series) and filtering the water at some point before it reaches the softener. As long as levels of iron and manganese in the water do not exceed the manufacturer's recommendations, iron and manganese clogging should not be a significant problem. When iron and manganese levels are higher than recommended by the manufacturer, iron and manganese removal will be necessary prior to softening.

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Is your WS designed to stop large amounts of iron? If so, why the additional iron filter and why was it (IF) plumbed after the WS? Only the manufacturer can answer these questions, along with recommendation of proper replacement medias and cleansing systems.

gregp553 said:

I found a new diagram of a feeder system online last night and feel good about it.

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Can you share that information?

You have probably done enough backwashes by now, and the feeder should take care of itself. You have shaken the system and it will clear in a short amount of time. It doesn't take much water to dissolve two ounces of PP. When you fill the can with water, your dissolving way too much PP and just wasting it. You can also put so much in the filter that the final rinse can't get it all out and you will have some real pink water in the house for a while. It's a real shocker when you discover you have just brushed your teeth using Pink water.

KULTULZ said:

Can you share that information?

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This matches my feeder. It appears by the diagram you pour in a quantity of PP and it sits on the shelf in powder form until the system adds water and dilutes some. That's my interpretation anyway.

Your right, thats how it works. We used to buy them in either 2oz or 4oz. The 2oz was what worked best for us. One head we used years ago would leave pink water after a back wash if we used the 4oz feeder.

After all that, the smell in the single cold faucet did not go away. I called in the company that installed the system. First thing I found out is that the second unit in my system is not an iron filter despite my iron testing at a 4. Nope. That second unit after the softener is a carbon filter. He said the carbon filter controls taste and odors. Yes, they use bleach to rinse the carbon filter. That's why the former owner told me to add bleach every 3 months to the black bucket. Here's why things went bad. The smell in my cold water faucet came about when the media in the carbon filter reached the end of its useful life. It was about 8 years old. I paid the company to come in and swap in a fresh load of carbon (?) media ($500+) and a new bucket feeder and the rotten egg smell is gone. I needed the new bucket feeder since I put Potassium Perm. in my unit when it needed bleach. So I was destined to pay the big bucks for a new load of filter media but buying a new feeder was my only penalty for all my efforts. Thanks for all the input, now we've all learned something.

PS: As a side note, a few weeks ago my 1-year old hot water tank suddenly was leaving a residue in the stainless kitchen sink. I removed the anode rod and drained and flushed the tank. It was shocking (to me) how rusty the water was that came out of a 1-year old water heater. And I'm not talking about just a little on the bottom, I'm talking 40 gals. of rusty water. The water expert said he was not surprised to hear that. Gotta rinse those tanks every year when you have high iron content.

I now have the best water in the history of water . Have a great holiday all.

gregp553 said:

After all that, the smell in the single cold faucet did not go away. I called in the company that installed the system. First thing I found out is that the second unit in my system is not an iron filter despite my iron testing at a 4. Nope.

That second unit after the softener is a carbon filter. He said the carbon filter controls taste and odors. Yes, they use bleach to rinse the carbon filter. That's why the former owner told me to add bleach every 3 months to the black bucket. Here's why things went bad.

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...hmmpf...

Now did he explain why the softener is plumbed ahead of the back flush carbon filter? Depending on the amount of iron in the raw water, a proper carbon filter can remove it. If the content is too high, a separate iron filter must be used.

PS: As a side note, a few weeks ago my 1-year old hot water tank suddenly was leaving a residue in the stainless kitchen sink. I removed the anode rod and drained and flushed the tank. It was shocking (to me) how rusty the water was that came out of a 1-year old water heater. And I'm not talking about just a little on the bottom, I'm talking 40 gals. of rusty water. The water expert said he was not surprised to hear that. Gotta rinse those tanks every year when you have high iron content.

I now have the best water in the history of water . Have a great holiday all.

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Again, the carbon filter should be first in line (IMO - I would think) so as to remove contaminants before they are introduced into the WS. The way it is plumbed now, the WS is doing the work of the carbon filter. Did the service tech give a reason for the plumbing sequence?

The renewed media will improve things but I fear it will be exhausted much sooner than normal doing the work of a WS and primary filter.

THANX for getting back as I know I learned something from all of this...

Happy Holidays to you also...

I agree with Kultutz. They are plumbed backwards and there is no way a carbon filter should have chlorine going into it during a backwash. Carbon absorbs chlorine and that is what depletes the carbon over time. It is like a sponge. It can only absorb so much then it must be replaced since you can't wring it out.

In my opinion, this water expert is an idiot. You might want to show him this whole discussion and see how he defends his work. Or simply call another water expert and explain what you have and see what his reaction is.

speedbump said:

I agree with Kultutz.

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Careful Speedbump. You might lose your standing here...

They are plumbed backwards and there is no way a carbon filter should have chlorine going into it during a backwash. Carbon absorbs chlorine and that is what depletes the carbon over time. It is like a sponge. It can only absorb so much then it must be replaced since you can't wring it out.

In my opinion, this water expert is an idiot. You might want to show him this whole discussion and see how he defends his work. Or simply call another water expert and explain what you have and see what his reaction is.

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I do not like the idea of ingesting chlorine. Hydrogen peroxide would be much less caustic, IMO. I would think that maybe the chlorine was used as the WS was being used as a primary filter and the media was compromised.

Careful Speedbump. You might lose your standing here...

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Not a chance, your on the money.

I gotta say that, even though the conversation was slightly side tracked, this was a very good thread with a great deal of very useful information. A fine example of experience and information sharing and problem solving.