Best Soldering Practices?

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jerlands

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After cleaning, fluxing and joining the pipe assembly, how long can you wait before soldering? I know oxidation is an on-going process but I'd like to get an idea how long I have.

Thanks,

Jon
 
"HI JON", `Textbook` Soldering would state to Clean, Flux, Assemble & Solder - although this IS correct
Soldering CAN wait a few Hours - IF You `HAVE TO` - for example if You are interupted DURING the process
and the interuption is Important enough to make You leave the Soldering for a `While` - depending on the
TYPE of Flux that You are using ??

As a `matter of interest` Jon - WHY do You want this `Information`?? - Also - without wanting to
`Annoy`or `Accidentally Insult`your Skills & Knowledge - Could You describe the `Process` that You
use when `Cleaning` - `Fluxing`& `Assembling` your Joints - PRIOR to Soldering.

That might be `Useful` to others here in the Forum - OR - We MIGHT be able to give You `Tips`on
Your `Methods`[?] - "Please Don`t be Offended by this" - You are never `Beyond Learning`.


"Regards", CHRISM.
 
Hi CHRISM,

No offense taken... I enjoy feedback and will appreciate any insight you can provide. I'm installing a by-pass for a whole house filter. The assembly consists of three valves, two tees, four elbows and an adapter. I have to put the whole thing together and solder as a unit to get the fit I'm looking for. It took me over an hour to build (cutting the pipe, cleaning and etc...) I used flux as I went along but now realize it should have been a dry fit first. The procedure I used was... Cut the pipe with tubing cutter and de-burred the edges. To clean I used an abrasive cloth and also on the edges... The fittings I used a round wire brush till shinny and finish by brushing the edges of the fitting. I then applied flux to both the fitting and the pipe and joined and onto the next... I wasn't planning on soldering it myself and the individual who was going to do it for me didn't make it this evening so looks like I'll be taking it apart and re-cleaning.

Jon

Edit... Also, any thoughts on solder brands? I picked up "Oatey Safe Flo Silver Lead Free Solder" and Oatey #95 tinning flux and wondered if it was any good.
 
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I have never seen a problem by leaving the joints unsoldered for a period of time. I have done large jobs where many fittings and piping are set up before soldering, and then ran out of time for the day, or got pulled off the job for an emergency. Went back later and finished the soldering, sometimes the next day. Oatey makes great products and they are the brand I have always used.
 
I have, on multiple occasions on big jobs, been "caught by the clock" with a lot of cleaned, fluxed, and assembled joints that I had no time to solder. I have never had trouble if I soldered them first thing the next morning, more than 16 hours later. If left for multiple days, it gets much harder to solder them. I have learned that from experience as well, so if you can't get to them right away, I wouldn't sweat it. But if it is days later, take them apart, reclean and flux.
 
"Hi Jon", You have received the answers that You needed regarding how long to
leave Joints after Cleaning, Fluxing & Assembly.

Just one point regarding what I asked you about the procedure you use when preparing
your Joints for Soldering:

The CORRECT procedure for Cleaning - Assembly & Soldering is as follows:

After measuring for required lengths of Pipe - cut Copper Pipe and `Deburr` the cut ends.

Clean Pipe ends and inside Fittings - WITH an Abrasive Pad/Cloth - NOT Wire Wool or
Wire Brush - As microscopic metal pieces can enter the Pipework from these. [ Theoretically]

Flux onto PIPE ONLY - NOT into the Fittings - as Assembly then causes Flux to enter into
the Pipework - unnecessarily, - When putting the Pipe into the Fitting - TWIST to spread the
Flux around the Fitting.

Making sure that large amounts of Flux does NOT enter into the Pipework is important -
especially with `Active` Fluxes [ supposedly `Self Cleaning`] - BUT - also with `Grease Based`
Fluxes [non `Self Cleaning`] - AND `VITALLY` important where the Pipework is NOT commissioned
straight away - FLUX is an `ENEMY` of Heating, Plumbing & Gas Systems - within the Pipework !!
Pipework Systems should ALWAYS be `Flushed Out` - and while Installing Pipework attention should
be given to ensure that this CAN be done when the System is completed - even if additional Valves
or Drain Off Cocks have to be installed to `allow` for `Flushing Out`.

For that reason - `Self Cleaning`/ `Active`Fluxes should NEVER be used for GAS Pipework - unless
the Manufacturer states that the Flux DEFINITELY becomes `INACTIVE` after Heat has been applied
- after Soldering, even then I would NOT allow that type of Flux to be used on Gas Pipework.

I assume that You know that you should NOT use any `Extra` Solder on `Solder Ring` Fittings - those
that already have the correct amount of Solder in them - Adding `Extra` Solder can cause the `Bore`
of the Pipe to be `Narrowed`/ Restricted - Do that a few times and the whole `Flow Capacity` of the
Pipe is completely negated !

Obviously you know to Clean the Pipework & Fittings after Soldering - very important regarding the
prevention of Corrosion of the Pipework by `Flux Residues`.

As I am based in the U.K. - London England - I am not familiar with the Brands of Fluxes etc. that You mentioned - So I cannot offer an opinion - except to say: Use Lead Free Solder and Good Quality Flux
and `Learn` how to Solder - it is NOT too `difficult`- but take care to Twist the Fittings/Pipe to ensure
that the Flux [ on Pipe ONLY] spreads around completely.

You can practice using `Offcuts` of Copper Pipe and inexpensive `End Feed` Fittings [without solder]
after the correct procedure in preperation You need to `Master` applying the correct amount of HEAT
from your Blow Torch - `Practice makes Perfect` - although it does not compare to when you have to
Turn On the Water afterwards - when you get proficient in Soldering You will have confidence in your
ability, pay particular attention to applying the correct amount of Solder - just enough to go all around
the Fitting - don`t keep `Feeding` Solder into the Fittings you will decrease the `Bore` of the Pipe.

You will probably get `Posts` that completely dissagree with what I have stated about the Flux - BUT -
I am CORRECT - IF You are installing Pipework for someone else - ASK them HOW THEY want You to
Flux the Pipe/Fittings - So that You don`t get the BLAME - IF something LEAKS !!
Probably MOST Plumbers would tell you to Flux BOTH Pipe AND Fittings - BUT - THAT IS INCORRECT !!
They are `making sure` that Flux is all round the Joint - BUT - putting excess flux into the Pipework.

I am now waiting for those who would like to be able to `Contradict` me on something like this !!

I would welcome Your reply if You wish.


"Regards", CHRISM
 
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Chrism:

>>>For that reason - `Self Cleaning`/ `Active`Fluxes should NEVER be used for GAS Pipework<<

You mean that in the U.K. you allow the use of solder on gas!:eek:

A strict no-no in the states.

I wont get on something else you said, I don't want to start any pizzing contests
 
"Hello Psycho99",

Yes Copper Pipe and Soldered Fittings is used in the UK for GAS Pipework.

We have Regulations and Recommendations regarding the Pipework being
`Accidentally Damaged` when it is `Run` in `Concealed Areas`.

Apart from Damage to the Copper Pipework being `Easier` than it would be
if Mild Steel Pipe & Fittings are used - there is no reason why Copper should
not be used.

In areas where Damage is `Likely` we either use Mild Steel on that section -
or `Box in` / `Protect` those sections of Pipework by suitable means.

It has been determined that using Solder does NOT cause a `more dangerous`
situation regarding FIRE within a premises - than Mild Steel & Screwed Joints
I am `Guessing` that FIRE acting upon Solder is the reason that You state
that Solder is NOT allowed on Gas Pipework in the U.S.A. ??

It has been determined - by Testing - that the Jointing Compounds on Screwed
Joints `Break Down` quicker than Solder Melts - So I am assuming that the Gas
Pipework in the U.S. [Domestic] is NOT Mild Steel / Screwed Joints - BUT is likely
to be Copper Pipe with Brazed Fittings ?? - Although I have actually SEEN Screwed
Fittings being Installed on a Canadian TV Program - `Holmes on Homes`- Canada is
probably more likely to have `Standards`/ Regulations closer to the U.K. ??

I would be interested in ANY comments that You have about what I have Posted
- remembering that MOST of what is known in the U.S. Plumbing, Heating & Gas
Industries comes from here in the U.K. - I would be VERY interested to know WHAT
has been `Disregarded` from OUR `Technologies`/ `Research`/ `Teachings`/`Publications
as either being `Unnecessary` or `Incorrect` or `Inconvenient` - ??

My comment that Most of what is known in the U.S. about those Industries - would of course
apply to EVERY Country in the `Developed World` also.
Any reference to the Ancient Greek and Egyptions / Romans is of course noted - BUT - in the
`Recent`/ Post Industrial Revolution period of time the U.K. has `Taught` the World Plumbing.
Heating & Gas Technologies.

Our Methods / Techniques are `Tried and Tested` - So I would be `Grateful` if You would let me
know WHAT You do not agree with regarding my `Post` about `Soldering` - I look forward to Your
reply.

I am NOT stating that WE do everything `Better` - Plumbing, Heating & Gas - than yourselves in
the U.S. - THAT is why I would like to get Your `Opinion`on whatever it is that You `Don`t quite
agree with` about my `Post`.

"Hope to hear from You" - We might `Debate` some points - but that is what a Forum is all about !!


"Regards" CHRISM.
 
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CHRISM:

>>>I am `Guessing` that FIRE acting upon Solder is the reason that You state
that Solder is NOT allowed on Gas Pipework in the U.S.A. ??<<<

I would have to guess also, I think it might be a hold-over from the days that we used 50/50 lead based solder which has a low melting point.


>>>So I am assuming that the Gas
Pipework in the U.S. [Domestic] is NOT Mild Steel / Screwed Joints<<<

We use black steel and galvanized, we also use copper tube but the joints have to be flared.

I have one thing I disagree with:

>>>Flux onto PIPE ONLY - NOT into the Fittings - as Assembly then causes Flux to enter into
the Pipework - unnecessarily, - When putting the Pipe into the Fitting - TWIST to spread the
Flux around the Fitting.<<<

This is a training problem with the individual that refuses to follow the directions which tell you to use an MINIMAL amount of flux (I've worked with so-called plumbers that PACK the fitting with paste) that causes major problem with flushometer valves; it's a good thing that commercial lines have to cleaned before the structure can be turned over to the owner.

Not fluxing the insde of a 6in copper fitting is going to cause you a lot of headache!

My answers are only general because every town, city, county and state may have a different idea :eek: have a good one.
 
HELLO Psycho99", When I was replying to the `Original Poster` about HIS
preparation process for Soldering Copper Joints - I was giving information about this on a `DOMESTIC PLUMBING` basis - I completely agree with You
that on LARGE SIZES of Copper Fittings you MUST Flux the Fittings as well as
the Pipe - NOT using `excessive` amounts of Flux.

THIS is NOT a `Cop Out` - There are situations in `Commercial`/`Industrial`
Plumbing where Plumbers carry out processes `Differently` to `Domestic` Plumbing - primarily because of the Pipe SIZES.

When I was answering a Question about `How long can you leave Soldered Joints `Un- Soldered`?? - It was obvious to me that this Question was from
someone who was `INEXPERIENCED` in Plumbing - therefore NOT an `Industrial/Commercial` Plumber - So I responded with `Advice` for Small Bore Pipework.

I wonder what percentage of Plumbers work regularly with 6" Copper Pipe & Fittings - Soldered Joints - ??
OR for that matter - what percentage EVER Work with over 2" ??

The Question was also in the `General Plumbing` section - Unless a `Post`
states otherwise - I would always assume that WE are giving information to
people who are trying to obtain it for DOMESTIC Plumbing purposes.

IF I have to `Post` replies that cover `All Circumstances` - not only would that be Unnecessary most of the time - BUT - it would also be too `Time
Consuming` for ME.

If You look at my previous `Posts` - You will note that I am NOT Known for
giving `Brief` answers - IF I have to go into `More Detail` - Covering EVERY
Possible Scenario that something in my Answer MIGHT pertain to - THAT would make `Posting` on this Forum a `Far from Pleasent` experience !!

Thanks for Your response - I now agree that perhaps in the example that You responded to - I should have `clarified` my instructions to have stated
that `On Larger Sizes of Copper Pipe & Fittings - You SHOULD Flux the Fittings ALSO` - Although I wonder When / If the Original Poster will be
attempting to Solder LARGE Sizes of Copper Pipe & Fittings - As He stated that He was waiting for Someone Else to do the Soldering for Him ??


Please don`t hesitate to Reply to ANY of my `Posts`/ Answers to people -
These WILL be answers on a `Domestic Plumbing` basis - unless I state
otherwise - USUALLY - I would NOT try to `Enable` a `Novice` to Attempt
ANYTHING relating to `Commercial` / `Industrial` Plumbing - Those Installations are obviously `Best` `Left to the Experts` !!

Also - as I am U.K. based - there WILL be situations where the U.S. CODES
- Regulations COMPLETELY DIFFER from ours in the U.K. - I TRY to avoid any
answer where that situation is `obviously` going to occur.

This HAS happened a couple of times already - where things that are `Allowed` in the U.S. - E.G. Horizontal Sections of Gas Vent [Flue - U.K.] -`Natural Draft` - are COMPLETELY BANNED in the U.K.
And - Things that are `Allowed` in the U.K. - E.G. Soldered Fittings On Copper Pipework for GAS - is `COMPLETELY BANNED` in the U.S.


"My Regards", Good to `hear `from You - CHRISM.


P.S. My paragraphs are `Disrupted` on here AGAIN - I don`t type too many
words on my lines - yet this KEEPS happening - "Sorry" that the page of text
looks as though typed by someone who does not know HOW to type !!
 
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CHRISM:

You seem to have missed that I don't agree with NOT putting flux in the smaller joints, I still think it's a training problem. ;)
 
The Training Problem SEEMS to be a `U.S.` one - as You felt that it is NOT
correct to only Flux the Pipe on `Small Bore` Copper Pipework.

Here in the U.K. - `Home of Plumbing in the Post Industrial Revolution Era`-
We Teach / Train our Apprentices to Flux ONLY the PIPE - on `Small Bore`
Copper Pipework.

Because some people are NOT `confident` of that - They alter the process
to Flux the Pipe and Fitting - not caring about `Excess Flux` entering the Pipework - ONLY wanting to ensure that they Solder without leaks !

EVEN with `Care` - trying to make sure that you don`t put `excess` Flux into
the Fitting - when you assemble the Joint Flux will still enter the Pipework -
THAT is NOT the case with Fluxing the Pipe ONLY.

One of my `Affiliations` is that I am a Member of the `Copper Club` - part of
the `U.K. Copper Board` - which is an Organisation which promotes the use of Copper Pipe & Fittings - as Better than other Materials for Plumbing, Heating & other Associated Trades.

This Organisation helps to Produce the `Techniques`and Processes that are
Taught to Apprentices and other `Trainees` - During MY Apprenticeship - 40
Years ago - I was `Taught` the Flux the Pipe ONLY and I note from Colleagues who are Tutors at Colleges where they Teach Apprentice Plumbers
that this `Method` / `Process` is STILL Taught to this Day.

I would assume that this `Process` - which I am sure has been Taught for as
long as Copper Pipework has been part of a Plumbers Apprenticeship - is STILL
considered BY EXPERTS - to be the `Way to Go`.

WHY / On what basis do YOU `think` that Fluxing only the Pipe on `Small Bore` Pipework is `INCORRECT` - ??

I do NOT state that because this `Process` has been done `For Decades` - that it should stay as is - obviously things `Move On` - better `Processes are
developed over the Years - BUT - I do state that as this Flux on Pipe Only
process is STILL done / taught [in the U.K.] for VALID reasons - That IS the
`Correct Way` here - AND in the U.S. / Anywhere that Copper Pipework is used for Plumbing, Heating etc. [Small Bore].

As I stated previously - "Thanks" for corresponding - I welcome Your `Views`
and Answers - I hope that You `Welcome` my Answers [?]

In case You do not know [have not read] my `Qualifications` for giving Information on this Forum - One of my Posts when I first joined this Forum
contained a `Brief Description` of `Some` of my Qualifications - which Start
with Plumbing `City & Guilds`[U.K.] - goes through various Heating, Gas etc.
Qualifications - Higher National Certificate - `Ending Up` with my Degree in
Building Services Engineering - `Master of Science` [MSc.].
The `Post`that I refer to describes them much better - IF You would wish to
find and read it, or if You wish I will `look back` thriugh my `Posts` and then
Identify which one it is - and `Post` that on here for You to find easily - ??

I mention this ONLY because it may be the case that You think that MY `Posts` are just `Opinions` - ??
As I am reading the `Opinions` of some people on here who `Obviously` are
NOT Qualified in Plumbing - and have `Little Knowledge` - I would like You to be aware that I am NOT `One of Those`.



"Regards", CHRISM.

P.S. My paragraphs are `Disrupted` on here AGAIN - I do not type too
many words on a line - Has anyone got a suggestion on WHAT is causing
this - ?? - I DO use the `End` Button at the End of my Line when typing
into `Boxes` such as when I am `Posting` on here.
THIS is `irritating` - apart from what it looks like - I don`t have time to go back over these `Posts` and `Edit` them.

Any suggestions - ?? "Thanks" CHRISM.
 
@ CHRISM

(This is about your formatting issues, not Flux, for those who want to skip it.)

You should be able to type normally in the text entry box without hitting anything at the end of each line. the End key will do nothing in this format, unless you mean the Enter or return key. If it is the latter, then pressing it will cause a break and shorten you lines (which appears to be happening.)

Examples:

If I type a long line like this but hit the enter key when I get to the end of the line because I am worried
about it getting too long, it will end up broken much as this paragraph looks.


If I type a long paragraph but allow the software to automatically wrap the lines for me it should look more natural, like this paragraph. Enter/return is for starting new lines only. Now i am just adding words to make this paragraph longer in order to display the difference between the two methods.

I hope I haven't misunderstood your problem, I am mainly working of the appearance of your paragraph structure.
 
CHRISM, the procedure in the U.S. for copper is to flux both the pipe and fitting. When finished, we flush the lines. We are also not allowed to use copper for gas lines inside the house. Soft copper with flare fittings are used to tap in for outside grills and fireplaces. I have soldered copper pipe up to 8" and we always heated and wiped solder into the fittings and on to the pipe before joining.
Pipe dope/compound is only a lubricant. It allows threaded pipe to seat properly. Pipe threads, unlike electrical conduit threads, are tapered to seal when properly tightened. Many people think it is a sealer, and none I have ever used states this.
 
CHRISM:

>>>WHY / On what basis do YOU `think` that Fluxing only the Pipe on `Small Bore` Pipework is `INCORRECT` - ??<<<

Over the years I've seen individuals try that on fittings that are tighter then normal and end up with a leak due to the flux not getting transfered to the fitting. I still say that if someone would use a MIMIMUM amount on the inside of the fitting there would be no problem.

I don't say that one is correct over the other, plumbing is an adapted trade that if you find something that works better you adopt it, to me using flux inside is the one that works better.

I see that (SlowDrip) has fixed your problem with the sentences, I do the same thing to break up a thought so I don't get one continuous sentence on my post; there have been people that do that, but I wont read a sentence thats five hundred words long!!, have a good one.:)
 
"Hi SlowDrip" - Thank you for your comments on my Typing Disruption `Problem` - I am typing on here as I have been doing for Years - You mention NOT using `End` at the end of a line - In `THIS FORMAT`- I have tried that in THIS `Post` - If it `works` "Thanks very much" - I personally would be interested in WHAT about THIS FORMAT causes my typing `Errors`/ `Disruption` - and NOT needing to use the `End` buttom to finish a Line - IF it does not `annoy` our colleagues - I notice that what I type into the `Posting BOX` does NOT look the same when `Submitted` OR when I `Preview` the text.
I have NOT been using the `Enter` Key or anything other than the `End` Key.


"Hi majakdragon" - Thanks for Your reply - it is now obvious to me that the `Fluxing` process IS `different` in the U.S. than here in the U.K.
Your comment about `Pipe Dope` NOT being a `Sealant` also shows a `difference` from U.S. to U.K. the `equivilent` product that WE would expect you to mean here in the U.K. = `Pipe Jointing Paste` - IS a `Sealant` - for `Low Pressure` GAS for example - as there is no way that Threaded Joints would not leak without this `Sealant`/ Pipe Jointing Paste.


"Hi Psycho99", - Thank you for Your reply - as I mentioned in my previous `Post` - I DO agree that Flux should be applied to Copper Fittings on Large size Pipe work - AND I would agree/advise that in situations of `Tight`Fittings that Flux should also be applied within the Fitting.
IF `Flushing` of the Pipe work / Systems IS carried out - then `Most` of the excess Flux should be removed - BUT - is this ONLY carried out on Commercial / Industrial Systems - ?? - What about Flux that gets into the Pipe work on DOMESTIC / Small Bore Systems - ??
Flux DOES cause damage to items within Domestic Plumbing & Heating Systems - I see this `All the Time`.

Thanks also for Your comment on my typing `Disruptions` - I have typed THIS without using `End` to finish a Line - I hope that it `works`[?] - IF NOT - what next ??

I KNOW that this matter should NOT be debated here - although it has `Displayed` on this Forum / `Format` and I don`t have these `problems`when typing anywhere else -??


"Thank You to ALL of the above" - I am pleased to `Hear from` all of You.


"Regards", CHRISM.
 
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CHRISM:

>>>"Hi majakdragon" - Thanks for Your reply - it is now obvious to me that the `Fluxing` process IS `different` in the U.S. than here in the U.K.
Your comment about `Pipe Dope` NOT being a `Sealant` also shows a `difference` from U.S. to U.K. the `equivilent` product that WE would expect you to mean here in the U.K. = `Pipe Jointing Paste` - IS a `Sealant` - for `Low Pressure` GAS for example - as there is no way that Threaded Joints would not leak without this `Sealant`/ Pipe Jointing Paste.<<<

We may start another long post the way this is going. The statement of (majakdragon) about pipe compound not being a sealant is totally bogus and there have been long threads with the two opinions, if that was true you could use oil on your joints and never have a leak :rolleyes:

I've always gone by the manufactors and they seem to think it's a sealer :D

It looks like your posts are comming out right :cool:
 
Pipe dope is definitely a sealer. Of course, not all dopes are created equal and some seal about as well as if you just asked the pipe politely not to leak. Pipe dope is ALSO a lubricant. Most dope will state directly on the package 'lubricates and seals' In most cases proper use of Teflon tape is superior, in my opinion. (This is where we start the great dope vs tape argument right? ;))
 
MY Opinion is also that Pipe Thread Tape - PTFE Tape [Teflon]- is a Much Better Jointing Method than Jointing Paste [`Pipe Dope`].

Here in the U.K. there is also a `Specific` PTFE Tape for use on GAS - This is a `Different Specification` to the PTFE Tape for use on Joints carrying Water - This Gas PTFE Tape is also much Thicker/ Different Consistancy.

The `Ordinary` PTFE Tape - for Water - is NOT allowed for use on GAS Pipe work Joints - it has been Tested [some Years ago] by Our Experts in Gas Utilisation and has been found to be `Dangerous` - in that if used it is possible that the Tape WILL `Degrade` over time - also that the `Basic` PTFE Tape is `Too Thin` to make a correct wrap around the Thread - the layers do not combine to make a `Sound` Joint.

I have previously Questioned their Findings relating to that point - As I wanted to know what THEY meant about the Tape being `Too Thin`- and why applying More Turns of Tape would not rectify that point - I received the reply that this formed `Part` of their Findings and was an `Additional Reason` for the `Basic PTFE Tape` being Prohibited for use on Threads for Gas Pipoe work.

I would be VERY interested in whether `Ordinary` PTFE [Teflon] Thread Tape is used in the U.S. - for Water AND Gas Pipe work Threaded Joints ??

"Thanks again" - for all of your replies - I am always very interested in the `Differences` between our Trades / Industries `Practices` - Some just differences in Methods / Processes - AND other differences which as far as WE in the U.K. are concerned cause `Life Threatening` situations and are `Absolutly Not Allowed` - These make me wonder how many people DO Die from `Situations` that are `Not Allowed` in the U.K. - BUT - are `Perfectly Acceptable` in the U.S. - ??

The `Safety` of Gas Installations are what I am referring to - and the information that I have received when I have `Posted` on here - relating to the fact that something that I / We would `Condem` as `Immediately Dangerous` is `Allowed`/ `Perfectly Normal` in the U.S.


"Regards to All", CHRISM.
 

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