Confused about Moen fixtures

Shroomster · 07-14-2010, 04:59 AM

OK hello, here are the basics of my situation:

- bought a remodeled house in 2005 (built in 1979 i.i.r.c)
- shower fixtures are MOEN single handle CLOCK DIAGRAM (with off being @ 6:00, cold @ 3:00 & unbearably hot at 12:00 & 9:00)

the past few months the cold water has been working only from about off to 5:30ish with everything past that being warm to hot. I had no problem with that.

then the cold water would begin getting warm after about a 5-10 minute shower.

I talked to MOEN reps on the phone and they said that I have a'posi-temp'
pressure balance cartridge in the showers faucet, and I should replace that.

so I turned off the water to the house (no shut offs indoors), turned the handle to 12:00 because the set screw was corroded and needed to be extracted, removed the old cartridge and placed the new cartridge in with the 'HC tab' facing up. reinstalled the handle @12:00 and turned it back to 6:00/off.

from this point on we get about 2-4 minutes of cold water then it gets luke warm.

the water in all the faucets around the house have cold and hot with no problems like this.

--I have taken the cartridge out at least twice and flipped it so the 'HC tab' was facing up/down opposite the last position I had it in and nothing changed.

--Did I miss something or do something wrong?

Shroomster · 07-14-2010, 05:02 AM

sorry just subscribing to this thread.....

**Mr_David** · 07-15-2010, 02:27 AM

HC should be up.
H for hot on the left & C for cold on the right
This is a pressure balancing valve. Inside the cartridge is a cylinder/spool that floats freely. When the fixture is on and let's say a toilet nearby is flushed the cold water pressure drops a little. The spool/ cylinder slides a little inside to equalize the pressure so you don't feel any change in the temp.
some times that spool gets stuck preventing a good mix of hot and cold at the desired temp. Maybe you have a defective cartridge. Usuallt a new one you can shake it and you can hear the spool rattle inside . This is normal.
The Posi temp valves I've installed had integral stops built into the valve so you can turn the water off at the water supply connection to the valve with a screw driver. Make sure they are open if you have them.

Shroomster · 07-15-2010, 02:42 AM

I see what you're saying, its the same as the moen reps said when i called them. What doesnt make sense is that both showers do the same thing now. Is it that likely that both cartridges (one old and one new) are bad.
I did verify before throwing away the old cartridge that both it and the new one rattled inside, but the two side flaps/grommets at the inlets on the old one were rotted.

...is that really what could be causing the lack of continuous cold water?

**Mr_David** · 07-19-2010, 02:49 AM

Do you have any other moen fixture with a pull on/push off type cartridge.
Sometimes a nearby faucet can have a defective core and can cause problems but may have other factors such as an imbalance in pressure between the H &C systems.

What happens if you turn off the cold supply to the hot water heater and then turn on the tub/shwr valve.
If the supply to heater is off ( valve must work 100%) and you go to lavatory faucet do you get any water flow from the hot side. If water is coming out then you have a cross over problem.
turn that faucet, go to a faucet in another part of the house and open the hot side if you get water, go back to the other closed faucets and listen for any noise. Noise in faucet means water is passing through it even when it is closed.

**phishfood** · 07-21-2010, 01:32 AM

Kilroy, I have got to remember that advice. I deal mostly with two handle faucets, so not such a chance of crossover there, but any single handle faucet has that possibility, and it never crossed my mind outside of tub/shower valves. Thanks!

Shroomster · 07-25-2010, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy

Do you have any other moen fixture with a pull on/push off type cartridge?

----No, both showers are single handle turning not push/pull. the two sinks in the bathrooms are 'tilt back and tilt side to side' from moen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy

What happens if you turn off the cold supply to the hot water heater and then turn on the tub/shwr valve. If the supply to heater is off ( valve must work 100%) and you go to lavatory faucet do you get any water flow from the hot side. If water is coming out then you have a cross over problem.

----from the original problem shower faucet there is a stream maybe a gallon/hour or so....as well as the same from the other shower faucet in the house

I checked the other faucets/sinks and they do not leak/drip/stream with the supply turned off

**Mr_David** · 07-25-2010, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phishfood

Kilroy, I have got to remember that advice. I deal mostly with two handle faucets, so not such a chance of crossover there, but any single handle faucet has that possibility, and it never crossed my mind outside of tub/shower valves. Thanks!

More common with the push off/ pull on type moen cores and even more with the brass moen cores with the Diagonal o-ring like this one.

**Mr_David** · 07-25-2010, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shroomster

----No, both showers are single handle turning not push/pull. the two sinks in the bathrooms are 'tilt back and tilt side to side' from moen

----from the original problem shower faucet there is a stream maybe a gallon/hour or so....as well as the same from the other shower faucet in the house

I checked the other faucets/sinks and they do not leak/drip/stream with the supply turned off

Tilt handles use the same cartridge as the push/pull. They just have an adapter in the faucet to convert it to a lever action.

This a tough one to try and diagnosis on-line. Hands on by an experienced plumber maybe the only way to resolve it.

Gallon/hour I presume to be an error.

A long shot but check the supply connection at the water heater. Some time the nipples get choked with scale from electrolysis and may be affecting the hot water volume

Shroomster · 07-26-2010, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilroy

Tilt handles use the same cartridge as the push/pull. They just have an adapter in the faucet to convert it to a lever action.

This a tough one to try and diagnosis on-line. Hands on by an experienced plumber maybe the only way to resolve it.

Gallon/hour I presume to be an error.

A long shot but check the supply connection at the water heater. Some time the nipples get choked with scale from electrolysis and may be affecting the hot water volume

By error you mean amount? It seems feesable to me as. it is a nice little stream.

By nipples you mean the inlet on the top? There is a cold water inlet, an outlet and then a third line. Only the cold water inlet has a shut off valve. Ill check it.

By the way, thanks for the help so far!