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Old 11-19-2010, 01:24 AM   #1
jerlands
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Default Best Soldering Practices?

After cleaning, fluxing and joining the pipe assembly, how long can you wait before soldering? I know oxidation is an on-going process but I'd like to get an idea how long I have.

Thanks,

Jon



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Old 11-19-2010, 01:45 AM   #2
CHRISM
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"HI JON", `Textbook` Soldering would state to Clean, Flux, Assemble & Solder - although this IS correct
Soldering CAN wait a few Hours - IF You `HAVE TO` - for example if You are interupted DURING the process
and the interuption is Important enough to make You leave the Soldering for a `While` - depending on the
TYPE of Flux that You are using ??

As a `matter of interest` Jon - WHY do You want this `Information`?? - Also - without wanting to
`Annoy`or `Accidentally Insult`your Skills & Knowledge - Could You describe the `Process` that You
use when `Cleaning` - `Fluxing`& `Assembling` your Joints - PRIOR to Soldering.

That might be `Useful` to others here in the Forum - OR - We MIGHT be able to give You `Tips`on
Your `Methods`[?] - "Please Don`t be Offended by this" - You are never `Beyond Learning`.


"Regards", CHRISM.



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Old 11-19-2010, 03:44 AM   #3
jerlands
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Hi CHRISM,

No offense taken... I enjoy feedback and will appreciate any insight you can provide. I'm installing a by-pass for a whole house filter. The assembly consists of three valves, two tees, four elbows and an adapter. I have to put the whole thing together and solder as a unit to get the fit I'm looking for. It took me over an hour to build (cutting the pipe, cleaning and etc...) I used flux as I went along but now realize it should have been a dry fit first. The procedure I used was... Cut the pipe with tubing cutter and de-burred the edges. To clean I used an abrasive cloth and also on the edges... The fittings I used a round wire brush till shinny and finish by brushing the edges of the fitting. I then applied flux to both the fitting and the pipe and joined and onto the next... I wasn't planning on soldering it myself and the individual who was going to do it for me didn't make it this evening so looks like I'll be taking it apart and re-cleaning.

Jon

Edit... Also, any thoughts on solder brands? I picked up "Oatey Safe Flo Silver Lead Free Solder" and Oatey #95 tinning flux and wondered if it was any good.

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Old 11-19-2010, 03:37 PM   #4
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I have never seen a problem by leaving the joints unsoldered for a period of time. I have done large jobs where many fittings and piping are set up before soldering, and then ran out of time for the day, or got pulled off the job for an emergency. Went back later and finished the soldering, sometimes the next day. Oatey makes great products and they are the brand I have always used.

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Old 11-19-2010, 10:49 PM   #5
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I have, on multiple occasions on big jobs, been "caught by the clock" with a lot of cleaned, fluxed, and assembled joints that I had no time to solder. I have never had trouble if I soldered them first thing the next morning, more than 16 hours later. If left for multiple days, it gets much harder to solder them. I have learned that from experience as well, so if you can't get to them right away, I wouldn't sweat it. But if it is days later, take them apart, reclean and flux.

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Old 11-20-2010, 02:11 AM   #6
CHRISM
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"Hi Jon", You have received the answers that You needed regarding how long to
leave Joints after Cleaning, Fluxing & Assembly.

Just one point regarding what I asked you about the procedure you use when preparing
your Joints for Soldering:

The CORRECT procedure for Cleaning - Assembly & Soldering is as follows:

After measuring for required lengths of Pipe - cut Copper Pipe and `Deburr` the cut ends.

Clean Pipe ends and inside Fittings - WITH an Abrasive Pad/Cloth - NOT Wire Wool or
Wire Brush - As microscopic metal pieces can enter the Pipework from these. [ Theoretically]

Flux onto PIPE ONLY - NOT into the Fittings - as Assembly then causes Flux to enter into
the Pipework - unnecessarily, - When putting the Pipe into the Fitting - TWIST to spread the
Flux around the Fitting.

Making sure that large amounts of Flux does NOT enter into the Pipework is important -
especially with `Active` Fluxes [ supposedly `Self Cleaning`] - BUT - also with `Grease Based`
Fluxes [non `Self Cleaning`] - AND `VITALLY` important where the Pipework is NOT commissioned
straight away - FLUX is an `ENEMY` of Heating, Plumbing & Gas Systems - within the Pipework !!
Pipework Systems should ALWAYS be `Flushed Out` - and while Installing Pipework attention should
be given to ensure that this CAN be done when the System is completed - even if additional Valves
or Drain Off Cocks have to be installed to `allow` for `Flushing Out`.

For that reason - `Self Cleaning`/ `Active`Fluxes should NEVER be used for GAS Pipework - unless
the Manufacturer states that the Flux DEFINITELY becomes `INACTIVE` after Heat has been applied
- after Soldering, even then I would NOT allow that type of Flux to be used on Gas Pipework.

I assume that You know that you should NOT use any `Extra` Solder on `Solder Ring` Fittings - those
that already have the correct amount of Solder in them - Adding `Extra` Solder can cause the `Bore`
of the Pipe to be `Narrowed`/ Restricted - Do that a few times and the whole `Flow Capacity` of the
Pipe is completely negated !

Obviously you know to Clean the Pipework & Fittings after Soldering - very important regarding the
prevention of Corrosion of the Pipework by `Flux Residues`.

As I am based in the U.K. - London England - I am not familiar with the Brands of Fluxes etc. that You mentioned - So I cannot offer an opinion - except to say: Use Lead Free Solder and Good Quality Flux
and `Learn` how to Solder - it is NOT too `difficult`- but take care to Twist the Fittings/Pipe to ensure
that the Flux [ on Pipe ONLY] spreads around completely.

You can practice using `Offcuts` of Copper Pipe and inexpensive `End Feed` Fittings [without solder]
after the correct procedure in preperation You need to `Master` applying the correct amount of HEAT
from your Blow Torch - `Practice makes Perfect` - although it does not compare to when you have to
Turn On the Water afterwards - when you get proficient in Soldering You will have confidence in your
ability, pay particular attention to applying the correct amount of Solder - just enough to go all around
the Fitting - don`t keep `Feeding` Solder into the Fittings you will decrease the `Bore` of the Pipe.

You will probably get `Posts` that completely dissagree with what I have stated about the Flux - BUT -
I am CORRECT - IF You are installing Pipework for someone else - ASK them HOW THEY want You to
Flux the Pipe/Fittings - So that You don`t get the BLAME - IF something LEAKS !!
Probably MOST Plumbers would tell you to Flux BOTH Pipe AND Fittings - BUT - THAT IS INCORRECT !!
They are `making sure` that Flux is all round the Joint - BUT - putting excess flux into the Pipework.

I am now waiting for those who would like to be able to `Contradict` me on something like this !!

I would welcome Your reply if You wish.


"Regards", CHRISM

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Old 11-21-2010, 09:52 PM   #7
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Chrism:

>>>For that reason - `Self Cleaning`/ `Active`Fluxes should NEVER be used for GAS Pipework<<

You mean that in the U.K. you allow the use of solder on gas!

A strict no-no in the states.

I wont get on something else you said, I don't want to start any pizzing contests

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Old 11-22-2010, 03:09 PM   #8
CHRISM
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"Hello Psycho99",

Yes Copper Pipe and Soldered Fittings is used in the UK for GAS Pipework.

We have Regulations and Recommendations regarding the Pipework being
`Accidentally Damaged` when it is `Run` in `Concealed Areas`.

Apart from Damage to the Copper Pipework being `Easier` than it would be
if Mild Steel Pipe & Fittings are used - there is no reason why Copper should
not be used.

In areas where Damage is `Likely` we either use Mild Steel on that section -
or `Box in` / `Protect` those sections of Pipework by suitable means.

It has been determined that using Solder does NOT cause a `more dangerous`
situation regarding FIRE within a premises - than Mild Steel & Screwed Joints
I am `Guessing` that FIRE acting upon Solder is the reason that You state
that Solder is NOT allowed on Gas Pipework in the U.S.A. ??

It has been determined - by Testing - that the Jointing Compounds on Screwed
Joints `Break Down` quicker than Solder Melts - So I am assuming that the Gas
Pipework in the U.S. [Domestic] is NOT Mild Steel / Screwed Joints - BUT is likely
to be Copper Pipe with Brazed Fittings ?? - Although I have actually SEEN Screwed
Fittings being Installed on a Canadian TV Program - `Holmes on Homes`- Canada is
probably more likely to have `Standards`/ Regulations closer to the U.K. ??

I would be interested in ANY comments that You have about what I have Posted
- remembering that MOST of what is known in the U.S. Plumbing, Heating & Gas
Industries comes from here in the U.K. - I would be VERY interested to know WHAT
has been `Disregarded` from OUR `Technologies`/ `Research`/ `Teachings`/`Publications
as either being `Unnecessary` or `Incorrect` or `Inconvenient` - ??

My comment that Most of what is known in the U.S. about those Industries - would of course
apply to EVERY Country in the `Developed World` also.
Any reference to the Ancient Greek and Egyptions / Romans is of course noted - BUT - in the
`Recent`/ Post Industrial Revolution period of time the U.K. has `Taught` the World Plumbing.
Heating & Gas Technologies.

Our Methods / Techniques are `Tried and Tested` - So I would be `Grateful` if You would let me
know WHAT You do not agree with regarding my `Post` about `Soldering` - I look forward to Your
reply.

I am NOT stating that WE do everything `Better` - Plumbing, Heating & Gas - than yourselves in
the U.S. - THAT is why I would like to get Your `Opinion`on whatever it is that You `Don`t quite
agree with` about my `Post`.

"Hope to hear from You" - We might `Debate` some points - but that is what a Forum is all about !!


"Regards" CHRISM.

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Old 11-23-2010, 05:21 PM   #9
Psycho99
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Default Copper Gas Piping Soldering

CHRISM:

>>>I am `Guessing` that FIRE acting upon Solder is the reason that You state
that Solder is NOT allowed on Gas Pipework in the U.S.A. ??<<<

I would have to guess also, I think it might be a hold-over from the days that we used 50/50 lead based solder which has a low melting point.


>>>So I am assuming that the Gas
Pipework in the U.S. [Domestic] is NOT Mild Steel / Screwed Joints<<<

We use black steel and galvanized, we also use copper tube but the joints have to be flared.

I have one thing I disagree with:

>>>Flux onto PIPE ONLY - NOT into the Fittings - as Assembly then causes Flux to enter into
the Pipework - unnecessarily, - When putting the Pipe into the Fitting - TWIST to spread the
Flux around the Fitting.<<<

This is a training problem with the individual that refuses to follow the directions which tell you to use an MINIMAL amount of flux (I've worked with so-called plumbers that PACK the fitting with paste) that causes major problem with flushometer valves; it's a good thing that commercial lines have to cleaned before the structure can be turned over to the owner.

Not fluxing the insde of a 6in copper fitting is going to cause you a lot of headache!

My answers are only general because every town, city, county and state may have a different idea have a good one.

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Old 11-23-2010, 06:28 PM   #10
CHRISM
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Default Soldering - preparation

HELLO Psycho99", When I was replying to the `Original Poster` about HIS
preparation process for Soldering Copper Joints - I was giving information about this on a `DOMESTIC PLUMBING` basis - I completely agree with You
that on LARGE SIZES of Copper Fittings you MUST Flux the Fittings as well as
the Pipe - NOT using `excessive` amounts of Flux.

THIS is NOT a `Cop Out` - There are situations in `Commercial`/`Industrial`
Plumbing where Plumbers carry out processes `Differently` to `Domestic` Plumbing - primarily because of the Pipe SIZES.

When I was answering a Question about `How long can you leave Soldered Joints `Un- Soldered`?? - It was obvious to me that this Question was from
someone who was `INEXPERIENCED` in Plumbing - therefore NOT an `Industrial/Commercial` Plumber - So I responded with `Advice` for Small Bore Pipework.

I wonder what percentage of Plumbers work regularly with 6" Copper Pipe & Fittings - Soldered Joints - ??
OR for that matter - what percentage EVER Work with over 2" ??

The Question was also in the `General Plumbing` section - Unless a `Post`
states otherwise - I would always assume that WE are giving information to
people who are trying to obtain it for DOMESTIC Plumbing purposes.

IF I have to `Post` replies that cover `All Circumstances` - not only would that be Unnecessary most of the time - BUT - it would also be too `Time
Consuming` for ME.

If You look at my previous `Posts` - You will note that I am NOT Known for
giving `Brief` answers - IF I have to go into `More Detail` - Covering EVERY
Possible Scenario that something in my Answer MIGHT pertain to - THAT would make `Posting` on this Forum a `Far from Pleasent` experience !!

Thanks for Your response - I now agree that perhaps in the example that You responded to - I should have `clarified` my instructions to have stated
that `On Larger Sizes of Copper Pipe & Fittings - You SHOULD Flux the Fittings ALSO` - Although I wonder When / If the Original Poster will be
attempting to Solder LARGE Sizes of Copper Pipe & Fittings - As He stated that He was waiting for Someone Else to do the Soldering for Him ??


Please don`t hesitate to Reply to ANY of my `Posts`/ Answers to people -
These WILL be answers on a `Domestic Plumbing` basis - unless I state
otherwise - USUALLY - I would NOT try to `Enable` a `Novice` to Attempt
ANYTHING relating to `Commercial` / `Industrial` Plumbing - Those Installations are obviously `Best` `Left to the Experts` !!

Also - as I am U.K. based - there WILL be situations where the U.S. CODES
- Regulations COMPLETELY DIFFER from ours in the U.K. - I TRY to avoid any
answer where that situation is `obviously` going to occur.

This HAS happened a couple of times already - where things that are `Allowed` in the U.S. - E.G. Horizontal Sections of Gas Vent [Flue - U.K.] -`Natural Draft` - are COMPLETELY BANNED in the U.K.
And - Things that are `Allowed` in the U.K. - E.G. Soldered Fittings On Copper Pipework for GAS - is `COMPLETELY BANNED` in the U.S.


"My Regards", Good to `hear `from You - CHRISM.


P.S. My paragraphs are `Disrupted` on here AGAIN - I don`t type too many
words on my lines - yet this KEEPS happening - "Sorry" that the page of text
looks as though typed by someone who does not know HOW to type !!



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