Plumbing qualifications in the u.s.?

**CHRISM** · 07-03-2010, 05:41 PM

I am very interested in what the required Qualifications for a Plumber are in the U.S. ??
I know that you will have Apprenticeship schemes - are they the ONLY way to obtain Qualifications ?? - also What are the Qualifications called and what amount of time [Years] is involved in attaining the Qualifications ??

I realise that there will be `Levels` of Qualifications - as here in the U.K. - I am asking about the `Minimum Qualification` that one could obtain to be classed as a Plumber ??

Is it the case where a `Plumber` MUST have recognised Qualifications to `Trade` as a Plumber ?? - what about the Insurance implications - `Public Liability` etc. ?

Are people working as `Plumbers` on Companies who do NOT have recognised Qualifications ?? - If so - HOW do the Companies allow that regarding their Insurance position ??

Also if a person claimed to be a `Plumber` - BUT was not correctly `Qualified`
and carried out `Plumbing Works`which then leaked causing damage - I take it that Insurance Company`s would refuse to pay out - because an `Unqualified Person` was used to do the work ??

I would welcome ALL information about this please - AND any U.S. websites
concerning Plumbing Qualifications that you could let me know about would also be `most interesting` to me.

"Regards to all my U.S. Plumbing colleagues", CHRISM.

**phishfood** · 07-04-2010, 03:36 AM

To the best of my knowledge, there is no national qualification system. Such regulations are left up to the individual states.

When I was going through the apprenticeship program here in Florida, to obtain a journeyman's liscense, you had to prove 6 years experience in trade, or 4 years in trade while in the apprenticeship program to be allowed to take the written test. The written test covered code compliance, general trade knowledge, use of mathematics in plumbing, that type of thing. Passing the test allowed you to submit your test scores and qualifications to a local building authority, usually county, who would then issue you a journeyman's card, which would usually be recognized statewide.

To be able to open a plumbing business and contract to do plumbing work, here in Florida you need a plumbing contractor's liscense. To obtain that, you must first pass a written exam that covers all of the things in the journeyman's exam, plus fire sprinkler code, medical gas code, septic system code, solar water heating, handicapped accessibility requirements, business law, employment law, and accounting. Also you must have good credit, and not have a lengthy/serious criminal record. Once you pass the test, you must prove experience in various areas of plumbing, obtain liability insurance, have a business checking account, and pay some fees. The Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation is the bureaucracy that deals with this, though I have spent a lot of time on their website without finding out much.

A certified contractor can hire anyone off the street and allow them to perform plumbing work. There used to be a requirement here that you have one journeyman plumber on a construction site for every four people who weren't, but that is no longer required.

I don't have any knowledge of what various scenarios might do to insurance rates, but I don't think that a contractor's insurance would refuse to pay a claim because the employee who performed the work was not a liscensed plumber. I do think that many homeowner's policies will not pay claims resulting from using a nonliscensed contractor.

**CHRISM** · 07-04-2010, 03:17 PM

"Thank you Phishfood", I am surprised that Qualifications are not `Nationally Recognised` and that a Contractor can hire anyone to carry-out Plumbing [or other] Works - IF I did that here in the U.K. my Insurers would cancel my Policies - For that reason !
Even the `idea` of someone other than a `Fully Qualified`/ Registered person USING a Gas Bottle and Blow Torch would mean that my `Fire Damage` section of the Insurance would be `Null and Void` ! - AND of course any claim resulting from `badly soldered` joints - which then leaked.

My Insurers FIRST investigation of ANY claim would be to identify the person who carried out the `offending works` - and ENSURE that their Qualifications were PROVEN - Before any Claim would be `entertained`.

One of the reasons that I asked my question about this is that Plumbers in the U.K. think that it would be almost impossible to set up as a `Self Employed` Plumber in the U.S. - Because of the `differing` qualifications and Administrative `Red Tape`.

They are also under the impression that Plumbing Companies in the U.S. are a `Closed Shop` with U.S. Qualifications and Union Membership - ONLY - `no-one else need apply`!

Our `City and Guilds` Plumbing Qualifications WERE recognised as the `Best` and most comprehensive in Europe - if not the World - That would be PRIOR to `Plastic Plumbing` being introduced ! !

Our Plumbers USED to Qualify with a VERY high standard of `Copper Work` and `Lead Work`- recently only Sheet Lead as Lead Pipework and connecting to - has been `Phased out`, and in fact Sheet Lead is in `competition` with other - less expensive sheet materials.
Lead Work has become a `Specialised` Trade discipline - carried out by Trades other than Plumbers.

I would welcome further replies on this subject - with Website Addresses if possible please.

I look forward to some more replies - "Please", CHRISM.

**majakdragon** · 07-04-2010, 03:19 PM

Mostly left up to the State you are working in. I served a 5 year apprenticeship in Ohio. I took both the Plumber and Pipefitter State tests. Once you took the test, you were issued a license. If you were working on a job and an inspector came in, you were required to show your license. This also was required when doing the inspection tests on plumbing systems. I worked at Disney World for a while and was hired as a Pipefitter. Only work I did was Plumbing. Never saw an inspector except for the Disney reps. When I took the Florida test, I also learned about the requirement to take a Business test if you wanted to be a Plumbing company owner. I think it was a smart idea since many businesses didn't last long, due to office mismanagement. Where I live now, in Arkansas, every person working on Plumbing must have a license.
Chrism, lead has become a lost art here, even for shower pans. I had to learn how to use it back in 1970 when I was training. The medical testing (blood tests) for anyone working with lead has made it too expensive to use. I worked in an automotive plant that made hoses for autos and some of the customers required that the process include using lead in the process (Mercedes was the biggest one). Federal law stepped in and made it illegal. Mercedes paid the $25,000 per day fine for 3 years. After that, the process was eliminated.

**CHRISM** · 07-08-2010, 06:18 PM

"Thank you majakdragon", We in the Plumbing, Heating and Gas Industries in the U.K. are `severely regulated` - in every aspect of Qualification and Registration - plus Notification of `prescribed works` to the Local Authority and probable Inspection of the Notified Works by the Local Authority Building Inspector.

We can `Self Certificate` most of our work because of our Qualifications and the fact that we have to be Registered to carry out Gas and other associated works - for example Electrical and Ventilation.
But ALL of our works are liable to Inspection by either the Building Control Officer or Inspectors from the Registration Bodies for Gas, Electrical, Plumbing, Ventilation etc.

Company`s that carry out other Building Works have to have `knowledge` of other Industries/Trades Regulations and Requirements - and to ensure that their works do not cause a change in situation - regarding Safety.
For example we have a lot of problems where Glazing Companies install Conservatories and change or obscure Ventilation for Gas appliances - making a situation where the correct ventilation WAS provided via `air vents` to outside air - AFTER the installation of the Conservatory - these Vents no longer communicated with `outside air`- rendering the Gas appliance `Unsafe`.

I am sure that with your knowledge and experience you will realise how `Technical` our various Trades are and the VAST amount of knowledge a Plumber and Heating Engineer MUST have.

Can you let me know if Plumbing and Heating [Wet] are `separate` Trades in the U.S. ? - where a Plumber would just deal with `pure` Plumbing issues and Heating Systems [Wet] would be installed ONLY by a Heating Engineer ??

On the subject of Lead - just like you - I was taught `Leadwork` during my apprenticeship - that `Trade` is now mainly carried out on Sheet Lead - by `Roofing Specialists`- the `Wiping`of a lead joint is almost `extinct` - as this is `Not Allowed` to the Mains Water Supply [for many Years] - Fittings are now produced to connect to Lead pipes [`Lead Loc`] - and it is `Highly Recommended to have Lead Mains Supply Pipes removed and replaced with `Poly`- although that will take many more Years to achieve for the whole of the U.K.

I did have to `Wipe` some Lead Joints recently - on pipework from a tank in a Stately Home - these pipes were approx. 2" Lead internal diameter - BUT - none of the mechanical fittings that we would use on `adapting` from other pipe sizes would fit because the pipes were nothing like `round`! - so I had to go there - after finding my `Lead Wiping Kit`
including `Moleskin` cloths - not used for YEARS - kept only for showing young Plumbers - like a `Museum piece`!
If I could not have Wiped these joints - I do not know anyone who still has the skill [and confidence] to carry out this `Lost` skill, a few people could have done 1/2" or 3/4" pipes in a trench - BUT NOT the size that I mention above, and because the pipes were in a `Stately Home` - imagine what would occur in the event of a leak !
To have replaced the existing pipework - that was NOT used for any Drinking or Bathroom Supply - would have been extremely expensive - AND require damaging wall surfaces 200 Years old.

Something that you mentioned regarding Blood Testing for people who worked with Lead - THAT is something that the U.K. was NOT strict enough on
I used to `advise` people who I knew who worked with Lead [in the past] to
arrange to be tested - almost `invariably` they did not bother to do so.
There was not the `Mandatory` testing in place that should have been, some Companies DID arrange for this - but at that time not enough `Overseeing` of this Health Risk was done.

"Sorry" that this `Post` has become so long [again] - I know that my `Walls of Text`irritate/bore some of my U.S. colleagues.

"Regards to all", CHRISM.

**majakdragon** · 07-08-2010, 07:53 PM

We no longer use lead in Plumbing, including the solder. Even automotive body shops are not using it anymore. Lead has pretty much been outlawed here for most purposes. I had an experience a few years ago that required pouring a 12" lead joint.After calling every old contractor in town, and every tool rental place, I ended up "making" a running rope for the front of the horizontal joint.
There are some States here that have "specialty" plumbing jurisdictions. I have met people from New York that only do Flange Fitting. When I asked what their job was, they stated they aligned and put the bolts into flanges and tightened them. I was flabbergasted. Most Unions I have worked around have a separation between Plumbing and Pipefitting. My union had Plumbers, House Plumbers (which paid less and did no commercial work), pipefitters and Refrigeration fitters. Being a State certified welder, I preferred pipefitting and enjoyed working with larger pipe sizes. I also carried a Plumbing license so I had my choice of work. Gas work was always tested and approved by the local gas company. If the newer plastic gas piping was used, the installer had to take an 8 hour certification course. Same was true for testing Backflow preventers in all installations. Hope this helps explain more.

**CHRISM** · 07-09-2010, 05:34 PM

"Thanks again", I am gradually getting the information that I am interested in about the various qualifications and practices in the Plumbing, Heating [wet] and associated Trades in the U.S.

In the U.K. we install Domestic Central Heating using mainly Copper pipework
is that the case in the U.S. ? What proportion of Wet Heating Systems - in your experience - use Radiators + Copper pipe and Fittings ?

IF Radiator Systems are NOT the `norm` in the U.S. - What is the main reason AGAINST Radiator Systems in areas where `Ducted Air Conditioning` is not prevalent ?? - would it be simply not wanting Radiators `on show` ?

"Thanks" for all your `input` here - I really am interested to find out about all the stuff that I have asked about,

"Regards", CHRISM.

**majakdragon** · 07-09-2010, 08:00 PM

Hot water and steam radiation systems are in usage quite a bit here. Copper for hot water and steel for steam systems. Radiant heat is probably the overall best type since it is gradual instead of having "blasts" of air as in forced air systems. Much friendlier on wood furniture. The only downside is that we use lots of air conditioning systems.This means that you need two systems installed instead of just one, as in forced air. We also use electric baseboard heat and now heated flooring is on the rise.

**Reedwalker** · 07-10-2010, 04:34 PM

Here in Michigan you are required to be a registered apprentice to work on a construction site. As far as service/repair there really is no connection between the insurance company and the licensing board. So in short, anyone can run a service company and get liability insurance.

That said, in order to obtain a permit, you must have two licenses. A master plumbers license and a plumbing contractors license. To obtain a masters license you must first acquire a journeymans license.

To be eligible for the journey plumber exam you must have been a registered apprentice for 3 years and have 6000 hours of experience. The exam is 8 hours long, split up into 3 parts.
1. copper project: you are given an isometric drawing of a piping diagram and are expected to make it fit into a 3 dimensional jig and of course be airtight.
2. Code exam: 100 questions multiple choice, open book
3. Isometric exam: 50 questions essay and multiple choice, open book

To be eligible for the master exam you must be a journey plumber for 2 years and have 4000 hours experience as a journeyman. The master exam consists of 3 parts.
1. Code exam: 100 questions, multiple choice, open book
2. Material take-off: 50 questions, multiple choice and essay, open book
3. Blueprint: 50 questions, plumb a 5 story multi-use building to code.

Anyone can qualify for the contractors exam. It is 50 questions, open book mainly based on ethics and administration. A contractor does not need to be a master. A contractor can hire a master.

We have seperate licenses for fuel gas, boilers, back-flow, med-gas, and mechanical.

I personally am Nationally Certified by the ASSE for med-gas and back-flow. Both were 40 hour courses with an exam at the end. Only med-gas requires semi-annual recertification.

**CHRISM** · 07-21-2010, 07:28 PM

Thank you very much for the information, I am gradually finding out what is required to work / contract in the Plumbing, Gas, Heating and associated Industries/Trades.

We in the U.K. also have `Continued Professional Development` Courses - where an Engineer or Tradesman can `update` or `qualify` in an associated subject to their `Trade` or `Occupation`/ `Engineering Discipline`.

I have mentioned before - in the U.K. we are very highly `regulated` - and this regulation of Qualified Persons/ Tradesmen / Engineers is going to become even `stricter`- to the extent that ONLY suitably Qualified people will be able to carry out works in the Industries that I mention here.

This is already the case for Gas, Electrical, Unvented Hot Water Storage Vessels, MOST Plumbing tasks, Mechanical Ventilation, Heat Producing Appliances etc.
Persons working in these categories have to be `suitably Qualified`- AND be Registered with `Competent Person Schemes` or Registration Bodies`- dependant upon the `Seriousness` of the Category.
For example - GAS works are very highly regulated - as is `correct` for a trade where `errors` can/do result in peoples death ! - A Gas Engineer has to be Qualified and Registered with thew ONLY National Registration Body - Gas Safe.

A `lesser` category would be for example `Ventilation` - where `operatives` would have attended `courses` to gain the necessary knowledge/updates and they would have to be registered with a `Competent Persons Scheme` for Ventilation.
Although I state that `Ventilation` is a `lesser` category - you will all be aware that when applicable to any change in Ventilation in an area where an `Open` Flued [Vent] Gas Appliance is in operation - THEN the knowledge of Ventilation becomes EXTREMELY IMPORTANT !

What is the `General Consensus` of my U.S. Colleagues regarding each `Trade` or `Engineering Discipline` ONLY being allowed to be carried out by
`Suitably Qualified` persons ?? - Who would be `Fully Qualified` and if operating as a Business would HAVE TO carry the appropriate `Licences` AND have Insurance cover for `All Risks` - `Employer Liability`- `Public Liability`etc. - ALL with Millions of Dollars of `Cover`.

I am interested in your opinions - beyond the obvious `Self Preservation` of not wanting to be `Regulated Out` of work that you carry out - at present,
I do realise that some of you will think that I am `mad` to even ask this - the answer being `fairly predictable` - BUT I would still be interested in your answers.

I had intended to make this a `SHORT` Post - a few words after the "Thanks"
of the first paragraph - as I know that my `Wall of Text` annoys some of you,
unfortunately - once again I have `failed` to be `brief`!

I look forward to your replies - as usual - "Regards", CHRISM.

P.S. IF some of the paragraphs here are `laid out` in a strange manner [noticed when previewing] - it has been done by the `program` here. [?]