My post about a water heater installation

[LiQuId]

I am able to do all calculations for combustion air, Size high pressure and low pressure installations, high altitude de-ration and all other aspects that make me a B class gasfitter, the Limitation of my ticket is that I can only FIRE an appliance that is 400 MBH or less. Though I CAN work on one over, I need somebody with an A class ticket to inspect and Approve my work before I can fire anything over 400 MBH

But I do Certainlly Agree with you that there should be more Scrutiny for those Who carry ANY ticket of this nature as There are Plenty of Boom time Plumbers that also hold a B class Ticket, Some of which that Fail at a simple jop of running a water line W/o A cross..

Myself, I try to be open to learning new things, Understand the Science of what We do and NEVER cut a corner.
the Code is available to those who go and buy a copy, as are the companion guides, and Duttons guide to perfect combustion is a book that has a vast amount of info and is highly recomended.

s far as the original post, Checked that out... Well, issues I see.

-Sloppy workmanship.
-NO Di-electric Union Used on connection between yellow brass Fip. and galvanized Thread.
-No effective vent hight.
-Hot line out touching Vent pipe ( flue. No 6" clearances )
-Shut off valve Appears to be installed with the bonnet in the downward position.( not allowed in plumbing code)
.. Perhaps it just "appears" that way.

That Flue will Definatelly Spill Combustion products.
and the Header is likely not sized properly.. Cannot speak for the others in your original thread, and cannot speak of the unseen Pressure releif valve and Gas piping.

What I CAN say is That I am suprised that it was even mentioned ( the Prv. ) as it is quite obviouslly an atmospheric vaccum breaker on the cold line in, and Why its there is anybodys guess as I have not ( untill now ) seen one on a Hot water tank that is not electric. ( commonly they are installed on electric HWT's to ensure that the heating elements do not contact air as if they do they burn out instantlly )

Much of this will becom moot as ( here in Canada ) it is illegal to install an appliance that is not High efficiant ( power vented or otherwise known as Condensing appliances ) save for hot water tanks which can still be mid efficiant untill sometime next year.. then it High efficiant or nothing at all.... Which I dont fully agree with, but I can see what they're going for in this. Unfortuneatelly for homeowners who are un aware that these changes are going to take place and have finished basements or have older boiler systems, but that is another story.


Remember No one wants Mono...

[LiQuId]

To add to my previos post ( after reading your last )

products of combustin, namely CO is a BIG problem weather or not the amounts are sufficiant to displace oxygen as CO bonds to your red blood cells and can accumulate over time. in order for it to be Scrubbed from your blood protein one must be out of an area with CO for 48 hours, otherwise it just picks up where it left off... making you ill and then eventually putting you to sleep and killing you.

I am reminded of a Brick layer on a crew that was using a large construction heater and I had overheard him oneday say " MAn I get the flu Every week ", which was of course played with and jostled by his crew ( blaming drinking and hangover of course ) I asked him If it was like the flu and he confirmed it, I mentioned the heater and sure enough, he was the one who worked closest to the Tarped in heater.

[CHRISM]

"Hello LiQuId",

Thanks for your replies - I need to let You know something regarding Your last Post -

`Normally` `Products of Combustion` do NOT contain Carbon Monoxide.

If You look back at My very long `Post` of about two Days ago - where I have written a `Sequence of Events`:

Spillage of `Combustion Products` leads to `Depletion of Oxygen` in the Location of the Gas Appliance - that leads to `Not enough Oxygen` in the `Combustion Air` - this leads to `Incomplete Combustion` - It is THIS `Incomplete Combustion` - Due to not enough Oxygen - That causes Carbon Monoxide to be produced.

The `Products of Combustion` from `Complete Combustion` do NOT contain Carbon Monoxide - They contain Carbon Dioxide and Water Vapour.

Obviously one would NOT want to be Breathing excess Carbon Dioxide - BUT what you stated about MY comment that `At present there was probably not enough `Products of Combustion` to `Vitiate` the Air` - Words to that effect - NOT being the `Pertinent Point` [your comment about CO in the Blood] - Does NOT apply to `Normal` `Products of Combustion`.

I have `Posted` this Answer to You just to `Inform` you - I am NOT `Patronising` You in any way when I say that you now know more about the `Products of Combustion` - As I would be VERY Surprised if this `Subject` does not `come up` at sometime in your Career - I wanted you to have the correct facts about it.

There are other causes of `Incomplete Combustion` that cause Carbon Monoxide - But I must let You `Research` those - I cannot write about them here - It would take far too long.


What You stated is a `Widely Held` view - And although it is not correct - it is `not a bad thing` for people to have a `Fear` of `Products of Combustion` - I hope that You will take My comments as they are meant - In a `Friendly Way`.


Thanks for detailing your areas of Gas Work that your current Certification allows You to be `involved in` - I hope that You Progress further.

Regarding what You stated about Canada changing Regulations to Specify that ONLY `High Efficiency` Gas Water Heaters will be allowed to be Installed soon - As these will be `Fanned Flue` [Vent] they will be MUCH Safer than the present `Open Flue` [Vent] Gas Water Heaters - But more prone to `Breakdown` because they are `more complicated` Technology - Although they do not contain anything that has not been `Tried and Tested` for Years - the mere fact that there will be more `Parts` will lead to more `Breakdowns` - Sadly.


For about 6 Years now here in the U.K. We have been Installing `High Efficiency` Condensing Boilers ONLY for Domestic Properties - [apart from very few `Exempt`] and for ALL Commercial & Industrial Properties that do not qualify for an `Exemption`,
An `Exemption` can only apply IF it is NOT `Technically `Possible OR it is `Prohibitively Expensive` - That to be decided by some VERY Complicated `Regulations`.


Regards,


CHRISM.

[LiQuId]

the problem with the high efficiency is in existing installations where a natural draft vent is installed, it is often hard to achieve a power venting option that does not involve invasive construction to the existing dwelling and as such Mid efficiant appliances fit the role well. ask yourself Why appliances must be High Efficiant when the building envelope may or may not be r-2000 or "sealed construction" the point of hIgh efficiancy is to decrease Stack and jacket losses on idle and the AFUE listing, however this cannot be obtained in a building envelope without first installing better insulation, vapour barriers, windows ETc..

I do not object to high efficiancy, I just think that if it is to be law then those lawmakers should look at the Whole picture. I have an Excellent tent heater for camping in the colder months ( not that it gets used often ) but I am still heating a tent and as such most of the heat i am producing is lost through the Walls... apply this same logic to a home .

[CHRISM]

"Hello LiQuId",

I agree with what You stated about the High Efficiency Appliances seeming only a `Small Part` of the `Whole` regarding Installing them in `Non - Efficient` Buildings - But this `Legislation` is so that the Government can `Show` that they are doing something in the `Appliance Replacement` Sector to `Lower` Emissions of Carbon Dioxide.

Siting them in Buildings where `Combined Vent Shafts` etc. exist is obviously `Problematic` - BUT Manufacturers will have to `Play Their Part` in overcoming these `Restrictions due to the Construction of the Buildings` - Before that is `Addressed` Examples such as You mentioned SHOULD remain `Exempt` due to the `Construction of the Buildings` and the `Restrictions` regarding `Venting` / `Flueing` of the Appliances.

The main purpose of `High Efficiency` Gas Appliance Operation is that some of the Heat that would normally be `Exhausted` via the Flue / Vent is `Recovered` from the `Products of Combustion` BEFORE they go out through the Flue / Vent - The INPUT to the Water in a Gas Boiler or Gas Water Heater is Improved because the `Recovered` Heat from the `Products of Combustion` ALSO goes into the Water.

This means that for every Cubic Foot / Cubic Metre of Gas Burnt there is MORE INPUT to the Water than there is with a `Less Efficient` Gas Appliance.

The Production of `Green House Gases` - Primarily Carbon Dioxide - Is obviously very High from Gas Appliances at present - and this `Subject` is part of a `World Wide Agreement` - I don`t know if Canada has `Fully Ratified` that Agreement - But I believe that the U.S. has NOT `Fully Ratified` as yet - Regarding NOT agreeing to `Cut Down` as much CO2 Production as other Countries have agreed to [?].

Here in the U.K. We have had Legislation governing ALL Gas Boilers and Water Heaters for about 6 Years - ALL New Boilers and Water Heaters [Gas] WILL BE `High Efficiency` `Condensing` Appliances - EXCEPT for very few `Exemptions` - Very Strict Rules apply to ANY EXEMPTION - `Official Surveys` have to be carried out which give `Points` for `Difficult Technical Circumstances` - IF a situation occurs where it would be VERY DIFFICULT to Install a `Condensing` / `High Efficiency` Gas Boiler for example - the `Points` for various scenarios are added up - IF these points reach `Exemption Level` then one can be `Granted` - and a `Non-Condensing`/ `Less Efficient` Gas Boiler can be Installed.

The U.K. has `Fully Ratified` the World Wide Agreement - the Name escapes Me at present [It was previously the `Kyoto Agreement`] - And although our Gas Appliances contribute approximately 20% of OUR Total Carbon Dioxide Production - WE contribute no more than 2% of `Global Carbon Dioxide Production` !

Never the less - Our ENTIRE Heating and Plumbing Industry has been Legislated into `High Efficiency` Gas Appliances - AND ALL of the Building Industry - regarding what I mentioned above.

What WILL happen is that in the `New Build` Sector of the Construction Industry - ALL of the Areas that You have mentioned - And More - WILL be Addressed - Buildings `Heat Loss`/ Insulation - `Air Changes`/ Ventilation / Windows etc - Insulation of Heating and Hot Water Pipework to `High Standards` - Construction of Suspended Floors regarding `Heat Transfer [and Noise].

These `Regulations` WILL also be implemented to `Refurbishment` / `Conversion` / `Refitting` Projects.

Obviously the Government cannot `Legislate` for `RetroFitting` Energy Efficient Measures in Homes etc. where NO Construction / `ReFurbishment`/ `Building Upgrade` is happening.

Here in the U.K. We ALREADY have these `Regulations` in place regarding making nearly EVERY `Building Project` comply to `Energy Efficiency Regulations`.


Good to hear some more of your comments LiQuId - I look forward to reading more on other `Posts`.


Regards,


CHRISM.